Rivers and Barbel decline?

[Graham Elliott 1]

Whitty. Re Severn and Trent.

I clearly made the point regarding SMALL rivers.
And it appears those ones are most affected by decline. And why that would be so.

Add Loddon to Kennet and Teme for example.

And by the way, have a guess how many barbel have been stocked in the past 15 years in the Trent?



Yes. In excess of 50,000..

 

[Phil Heaton]

Do you have them in the Dearne Phil -- loads in the river Rother at catcliffe !.

Yes plenty there... the ones from the upper cleaner river are tasty

 

[flightliner]

Yes plenty there... the ones from the upper cleaner river are tasty

Since asking I wsa shown a few pics by a carp angler Phil --- tasty = very nice!
Salmon showing in Doncaster these days, hope when they show in the Dearne, Rother the rivers stay open to all. Be a lot sad if much of their lengths turned into private beats!.

 

[The bad one]

Could being inter sexed have an effect on the growth of those affected resulting in more large fish as females tend to be larger than the males but those fish being without the ability to breed as a male or female.

Yes in some animals whether it's true in fish is less clear.

It's known with male livestock they put weight on when castrated. Triplode trout are asexual and grow very big and fat.

 

[108831]

Whitty. Re Severn and Trent.

I clearly made the point regarding SMALL rivers.
And it appears those ones are most affected by decline. And why that would be so.

Add Loddon to Kennet and Teme for example.

And by the way, have a guess how many barbel have been stocked in the past 15 years in the Trent?



Yes. In excess of 50,000..

Wow Graham,even though it is a massive river,that's a massive amount of fish....

 

[binka]

And by the way, have a guess how many barbel have been stocked in the past 15 years in the Trent?



Yes. In excess of 50,000..

Wow Graham,even though it is a massive river,that's a massive amount of fish....

If you went back four or five years I would have said it had caused an imbalance in favour of barbel, given the proximity of the Calverton farm to the Trent this might not be all that surprising and I strongly suspect that many fish caught in other rivers originated from Trent brood fish.

More recently and over the last season the catch rates of many I know would suggest that there's been a steep decline but believe me they are still there and in high numbers, they've just evolved to wise up to static baits as nature always evolves.

Many would disagree with me but I'm now firmly of the opinion that barbel stocking on the Trent ought to be suspended pending any factual decline in their numbers, they were appearing throughout the mid-eighties and doing ok on their own and you can over support something at the cost of others when you start meddling with nature.

They are very much still there and that is a contradiction to my own previous feelings.

I just wonder if it's a similar case on these smaller rivers and they are very much there but avoiding static baits?

Have any factual surveys been carried out as opposed to relying on catches?

 

[108831]

The Trent is probably settling to more normal stocking levels Steve,your comments on the fish being more partial to a moving bait,is another normal progression,having seen first hand the result of one line in a barbel swim,I can't imagine how a procession of anglers lines is reacted to(can't exactly back lead eh?),decent sized fish become more wary and spook for any variety of reasons,one spook can ruin your chances for the session,it is only numbers of fish competing that negates said spook,that is why a decline is so,so damaging.

 

[lutra]

As I said,you have no knowledge of the Ivel,I wouldn't expect you to have,the Ivel barbel were doing well in two stretches,one at Blunham,the other at Biggleswade,but are not indigenous,barbel have been stocked on the common below Biggleswade and on the stretches above the town almost up to the headwaters,from above any barbel would struggle to get downstream owing to a high awkward weir and as the river is the model of flood prevention too they wouldn't get around it(unless they were fry being washed through),the EA thought,wrongly,that they could make the whole length of the Ivel into a barbel river,that was never going to happen as much of the river is quite sedate,with no shallow water,Blunham and above the Mechano bridge was ideal,below on the common is in general a little too shallow,above the weir at Biggleswade is ok until Broome,then it becomes very slow.The Ivel was never going to become a copy of the Severn,by its very nature,so a stocking 4 miles upstream would not mean a spread throughout its length.

Alan,
Your lack of answers suggest's to me that you know as much as I do about the Ivel and your reply tells me little of any proven facts.

 

[108831]

As i'm not an river environmental expert,or a fisheries scientist I have no definite answers,just plenty of questions,if you have the required qualifications Brian perhaps i'd bow to your superior knowledge,even then i'd rather have it from the EA,you don't mention your own rivers much so I can take in your locally accumulated gen,which I cannot argue with imo,rivers have changed,in many ways,here in the southern part of the UK our human population rises can't help our river systems,maybe that is the issue,who cares,what will be,will be and it won't be me that suffers the decline,it will be the younger anglers....As you believe I know nothing about the Ivel,our discussion is pointless,one fact i'll give you,I know nothing about the Ribble,i've never seen it,let alone fished it...

 

[The bad one]

I believe the Ribble was first stocked with barbel in the 50s but not thought to have been successful. Then further stockings in the 60s by the AT and further ones by naughty anglers in the 70s maybe into the early 80s. But nothing after that that that I know of. Despite the long list of things that eat them, they don't need it.

Having fished the Ribble for 50 years and met so-called protagonists involved in this river’s barbel stockings over that period there seems to be some myths being built that I find somewhat hard to believe and I believe are not quite right in the above statement.
Any stocking in the 1950s if done officially would have been carried out by the Old Lancashire River Board (1948-63). I’ve read quite a few of the minutes they produced from the 50s-60s (Contained in the Lancashire Achieves) and can say I’ve found no record of any barbel being stocked into the Ribble by them. Also I’ve read substantial amounts of Lancashire Rivers Authority minutes as well 1963 -74, and again there’s no mention of stocking barbel anywhere in the NW during this period.

Therefore any barbel stocked during the 50s early to mid 60s would have most likely come via angler stocking from the Yorkshire rivers, one of the natural homes of barbel in the UK. There is as I see it a problem at this time with angler stocking, as most anglers didn’t have their own cars and were reliant on coaches and to a lesser extent the trains to take them on their far out fishing trips. Invariable such trips were match style outings and the movement of fish on any quantitive scale would have been small to say the least. Been brought back in anglers ground bait buckets and the like.

As to Angling Times stock them in the Ribble, until it appeared on here, I’ve never heard of it before. I say this with some certainty as the Ribble matches were the really converted matches in our club’s calendar in the late 1960s. There was never any talk on the coach up to the river from the older nationally seasoned match anglers about barbel being stocked in it. The talk was always about getting the chub or roach going and how if you got a flyer, you’d win the match. These guys had also fished up and down the country, always going via coach and would tell us pups stories of their outings past and barbel along with carp always came up virtually on every club trip out and as I’ve said stocking of barbel at that time in the Ribble was never mentioned.
As to the stockings in 1970s I can confirm It happened, most being stocked around London Rd Bridge and the M6 motorway Bridge initially. I even spoke to a guy from Preston one day a few years ago who got caught by a Water Authority Bailiff under the motorway bridge tipping a dustbin full of small barbel into the river from the Severn. He reckoned it was in 1974 and him and his mate’s had been doing it for two years previously before he got caught. The bailiff *******ed him up and down dale, but didn’t book him as moving fish about without permission (Section 30 forerunner) of the Water Authority had only just come in, in April of that year. This tally’s with the change from County River Authorities to regional ones. The Ribble going from Lancashire RA to NWRA and increased fish health protections such as forerunner Section 30s and notifiable fish diseases, etc.

Note I’ve stated before on here, it was not illegal to stock any fish species in any water before 1974 as there was no regulations that coved stocking or movement. So any barbel stocked by anglers before 1974 was not an illegal act but could dependant on your point of view be classed as immoral.

I’ve also heard very creditable stories over the years of fish being brought across the Pennines late 70s early 80s from the Swale by a group of anglers from around the Clitheroe Area. But never met any angler who has admitted to this act.

 

[lutra]

Having fished the Ribble for 50 years and met so-called protagonists involved in this river’s barbel stockings over that period there seems to be some myths being built that I find somewhat hard to believe and I believe are not quite right in the above statement.
Any stocking in the 1950s if done officially would have been carried out by the Old Lancashire River Board (1948-63). I’ve read quite a few of the minutes they produced from the 50s-60s (Contained in the Lancashire Achieves) and can say I’ve found no record of any barbel being stocked into the Ribble by them. Also I’ve read substantial amounts of Lancashire Rivers Authority minutes as well 1963 -74, and again there’s no mention of stocking barbel anywhere in the NW during this period.

Therefore any barbel stocked during the 50s early to mid 60s would have most likely come via angler stocking from the Yorkshire rivers, one of the natural homes of barbel in the UK. There is as I see it a problem at this time with angler stocking, as most anglers didn’t have their own cars and were reliant on coaches and to a lesser extent the trains to take them on their far out fishing trips. Invariable such trips were match style outings and the movement of fish on any quantitive scale would have been small to say the least. Been brought back in anglers ground bait buckets and the like.

As to Angling Times stock them in the Ribble, until it appeared on here, I’ve never heard of it before. I say this with some certainty as the Ribble matches were the really converted matches in our club’s calendar in the late 1960s. There was never any talk on the coach up to the river from the older nationally seasoned match anglers about barbel being stocked in it. The talk was always about getting the chub or roach going and how if you got a flyer, you’d win the match. These guys had also fished up and down the country, always going via coach and would tell us pups stories of their outings past and barbel along with carp always came up virtually on every club trip out and as I’ve said stocking of barbel at that time in the Ribble was never mentioned.
As to the stockings in 1970s I can confirm It happened, most being stocked around London Rd Bridge and the M6 motorway Bridge initially. I even spoke to a guy from Preston one day a few years ago who got caught by a Water Authority Bailiff under the motorway bridge tipping a dustbin full of small barbel into the river from the Severn. He reckoned it was in 1974 and him and his mate’s had been doing it for two years previously before he got caught. The bailiff *******ed him up and down dale, but didn’t book him as moving fish about without permission (Section 30 forerunner) of the Water Authority had only just come in, in April of that year. This tally’s with the change from County River Authorities to regional ones. The Ribble going from Lancashire RA to NWRA and increased fish health protections such as forerunner Section 30s and notifiable fish diseases, etc.

Note I’ve stated before on here, it was not illegal to stock any fish species in any water before 1974 as there was no regulations that coved stocking or movement. So any barbel stocked by anglers before 1974 was not an illegal act but could dependant on your point of view be classed as immoral.

I’ve also heard very creditable stories over the years of fish being brought across the Pennines late 70s early 80s from the Swale by a group of anglers from around the Clitheroe Area. But never met any angler who has admitted to this act.

I only started cutting my teeth on the ribble in the late 70s as a young lad, so only know what is talked of before that. Would make a lot of sense to me if the stockings of the 50s and 60s didn't happen as i never understood why they hadn't got a better hold on the river back then.

Not sure about the illegal stocking in 74. I had it in my head that it was about 77 and reported in the local paper the lads were prosecuted for it.

Fished mostly around Balderstone and Ribchester in my early days and didn't see a barbel till I caught a little one (6oz) in about 82. By the late 80s I was fishing for them there and catching plenty.

---------- Post added at 15:50 ---------- Previous post was at 15:39 ----------

As i'm not an river environmental expert,or a fisheries scientist I have no definite answers,just plenty of questions,if you have the required qualifications Brian perhaps i'd bow to your superior knowledge,even then i'd rather have it from the EA,you don't mention your own rivers much so I can take in your locally accumulated gen,which I cannot argue with imo,rivers have changed,in many ways,here in the southern part of the UK our human population rises can't help our river systems,maybe that is the issue,who cares,what will be,will be and it won't be me that suffers the decline,it will be the younger anglers....As you believe I know nothing about the Ivel,our discussion is pointless,one fact i'll give you,I know nothing about the Ribble,i've never seen it,let alone fished it...

I've never claimed to know anything about the Ivel Alan. You were the one spouting about it. Yet you don't even seem to know if barbel are native to it.

 

[The bad one]

Some further thoughts to add to the above NWWA (later to become a EA's Northern Farm/ Hatchery) had a fish farm at Layland Lancashire that bred fish for stocking in the North. It did bred coarse fish later on and when the EA took over it, but its primary function in NWWA days was the breeding of game fish, Brown and Rainbow Trout for stocking in its reservoirs where they could make good money from day and annual game tickets. No doubt some of the Brown Trout stock went into the trout becks and rivers in Cumbria, Northubria and Yorkshire.

The biggest Farm/Hatchery of the then water authorities was Calverton and owned by Severn and Trent WA. Calverton developed the breeding technique of barbel in the early 80s and announced it to the angling world I seem to recall in 1982/3. Before Calverton perfected the breeding technique, it was thought impossible to breed barbel in a hatchery setting. Therefore at the earlist hatchery bred barbel could have been stocked was 1979/80 as usually such things have a time lag of about 2 years trialing before a successful announcements is made. Therefore any stocks of barbel in any river would have had to have come from wild populations elsewhere. As was the case of the Severn stocking 509 in 1956 from the R. Kennet.
The timing of the Calverton technique is important re the Ribble and as far as I've read in any minutes re the Layland farm, they never bred barbel there at any point until it closed. So any stocking of hatchery fish from official sorces would have had to come from Calverton from 82 onwards and doesn't fit the time lines as suggested above 50s 60s.

Given the known facts as I've read them from official sources and anecdotal sources I'm very confident that the first major stockings took place from the early 1970s onward and from the R. Severn by the guys who lived in the Preston Area. I don't discount Yorkshire stocking happening around the same time either.

PS lutra 1977 would make sense for prosecution as by then the system and backlash against transferring fish from one water to another was coming to the fore. Principally driven by the movement of carp by carp anglers and the associated risks of disease transfer. The first report I heard of a double figure fish coming from the river Melings Area (Preston Central as was) was in 1978 from a guy I knew called Bryan Godfery who wrote a angling column for one of the local papers in Preston at the time. That fish to get to that size would have had to have been in the river for at least 5 years if it was stocked at 6 lb. My understanding was that the Preston Lads always brought back, small 1-2 lb fish from the Severn in the dustbins they carried in back of the tranny van they went down in.

 

[108831]

the Ivel fish were originally stocked Brian,I think I said earlier around the eighties,firstly illegally,then legally,by the way you intimated several points about the Ivel in earlier posts,that infers some knowledge.I apologise for my spouting,you could choose to ignore it,or maybe not as you seem to thrive on it.

 

[Bluenose]

Some further thoughts to add to the above NWWA (later to become a EA's Northern Farm/ Hatchery) had a fish farm at Layland Lancashire that bred fish for stocking in the North. It did bred coarse fish later on and when the EA took over it, but its primary function in NWWA days was the breeding of game fish, Brown and Rainbow Trout for stocking in its reservoirs where they could make good money from day and annual game tickets. No doubt some of the Brown Trout stock went into the trout becks and rivers in Cumbria, Northubria and Yorkshire.

The biggest Farm/Hatchery of the then water authorities was Calverton and owned by Severn and Trent WA. Calverton developed the breeding technique of barbel in the early 80s and announced it to the angling world I seem to recall in 1982/3. Before Calverton perfected the breeding technique, it was thought impossible to breed barbel in a hatchery setting. Therefore at the earlist hatchery bred barbel could have been stocked was 1979/80 as usually such things have a time lag of about 2 years trialing before a successful announcements is made. Therefore any stocks of barbel in any river would have had to have come from wild populations elsewhere. As was the case of the Severn stocking 509 in 1956 from the R. Kennet.
The timing of the Calverton technique is important re the Ribble and as far as I've read in any minutes re the Layland farm, they never bred barbel there at any point until it closed. So any stocking of hatchery fish from official sorces would have had to come from Calverton from 82 onwards and doesn't fit the time lines as suggested above 50s 60s.

Given the known facts as I've read them from official sources and anecdotal sources I'm very confident that the first major stockings took place from the early 1970s onward and from the R. Severn by the guys who lived in the Preston Area. I don't discount Yorkshire stocking happening around the same time either.

PS lutra 1977 would make sense for prosecution as by then the system and backlash against transferring fish from one water to another was coming to the fore. Principally driven by the movement of carp by carp anglers and the associated risks of disease transfer. The first report I heard of a double figure fish coming from the river Melings Area (Preston Central as was) was in 1978 from a guy I knew called Bryan Godfery who wrote a angling column for one of the local papers in Preston at the time. That fish to get to that size would have had to have been in the river for at least 5 years if it was stocked at 6 lb. My understanding was that the Preston Lads always brought back, small 1-2 lb fish from the Severn in the dustbins they carried in back of the tranny van they went down in.

Educational as ever Philipo. The transit/dustbin was a standard transfer method for many species way back then and several locals have suggested that Severn barbel found their way into the Weaver in my neck of the woods as fellas returned from the numerous club and open matches which were held only a 45 minute drive away in and around Shrewsbury.

Yet, since moving to this area a decade ago, I have never seen sight nor sound of a barbel in the Nantwich area, and never met anyone who has. The main road into the town from Whitchurch (B530) crosses the Weaver and being the nearest convenient point was apparently the main point of stocking.

A mile or less upstream of this and you have a narrow quicker river, slightly downstream you have a series of weirs and sluices which leads to more sluggish stretches.

Yet for whatever reason it seems they either did not take hold, or possibly (but less likely imo) are confined to specific areas which rarely if ever see an angler.

 

[The bad one]

You know me Ed always a trier nice to see a post from you on here. Suspect they went the way of the Dane fish did disappearing and only being in certain tight swims.

 

[sam vimes]

I don't discount Yorkshire stocking happening around the same time either.

I've heard quite a few anecdotes about Swale barbel "walking" over the Pennines from the older generation of river matchmen in the area. The biggest issue from this angle is that it's very unlikely that anyone from this side of the hills would have been actively involved. It's also the case that the numbers of those with genuine knowledge of events is dwindling rather rapidly. There won't be many people less than sixty years old that could possibly have first hand knowledge.

 

[The bad one]

If it happened? the stories, it was Lancastrian boarderlanders mounting raiding parties over the hill Sam. Dressed in penny round collars shirts, tanktops and wearing flairs.

 

[Bluenose]

You know me Ed always a trier nice to see a post from you on here. Suspect they went the way of the Dane fish did disappearing and only being in certain tight swims.

The tight swims might be a possibility but you'd think the odd one would show up in and around the town Phil? Along with fishing the river, probably 20 times a season for the past decade, running, or walking the lengths with the dog at least once every weekend I've never heard a single claim of a barbel caught, or moan of a barbel lost.

That said, a mile or so upstream of the town and you will rarely see an angler, the club stretches are rarely fished at all and a mile or so downstream you are on riverbank which is private farmland with no fishing rights (to my knowledge) so aside from the very odd occasion these areas rarely, if ever, see an angler. You've got me thinking mind.

However, in some ways, when one looks at GE's points about smaller rivers, the upper Weaver falls very much into that category, in some areas we're talking a couple of metres wide, so perhaps their ability to stay elusive isn't such a bad thing?

 

[steve2]

If you think barbel are in decline in your area try catching one in Essex. The EA refuse to stock them because there are no natural barbel rivers but still pour 1000’s into other not natural barbel rivers.
Just when does a stocked barbel river become a natural barbel river?
You could say that the Roding was a barbel river because I stocked with some barbel from elsewhere nearly 50 years ago.

 

[The bad one]

Those barbel will be there somewhere Ed, but as you say much of the river isn’t fished and on private land.
Take the R. Croco Middlewich, only a metre or two wide and very shallow with a few deep holes every now and then, which did have a small head of barbel in it in the early 1990s and threw up a fish of 10lb+ to an intrepid explorer angler. Sadly the stock got wiped out when the Croco and Dane suffered the pollution in the Middlewich area about 8-12 years ago.

A recent planned piece of work on the Huddersfield Narrow Canal where the CRT drained and netted a length, finding several brabel that had been stocked years ago by the controlling club, but yet no one had every caught any, they just disappeared after stocking for all that time.

Oh and before someone gets on their high horse about barbel in a canal and it being a Stillwater. This canal has a pull on it as good as some of the lowland rivers like the Ouse, Welland and the like. In times of heavy rain and being one of the highest canals in the country, it gets a lot of rain you can literally trot a float down it.