Running or Fixed?

[Ray Roberts]

Yeah, I think a lot of the time with drop backs the fish have hooked themselves before you even strike.

Using a light weight like this, I think it is more likely that the fish feels no resistance as the weight is moving towards them due to a combination of the pull from the tip and the flow of the current. If you use a heavy feeder/weight upstream then you are proberbly right about them hooking themselves.

 

[captain carrott]

Yep Exactly. There are some anglers who try to purposely fish with very heavy leads in order to try and force the rig to fish like a true running lead . The theory is that as the pull on the line is transmitted directly to the indicator rather than some of it going towards shifting the lead across the bottom so resistance to the fish should be minimal…However in practice it takes a big lead to do this and most of the time the lead will move.

this is exactly the thinking behind my running pike fishing rigs. get as much lead out there as possible then instead of moving the lead it stays put and forms a pivot point, then every bite is a run no matter which direction the fish moves in. you're looking at 6 oz leads and large bore run rings to do it though

 

[Philip]

Yes your spot on ....the big lead acts as the pivot point, thats why if a running lead is working as it should its not possible to have a drop back. Every take will lift the indicator. If you get a drop back your lead is moving.

As you say for it to work like that the lead needs to be really big..and also as you suggest a large bore run ring should help as well....it probably also helps to add a link swivel or something flexible to the run ring that attaches it the lead so it can «*fold round*» so to speak on the take as well.

 

[Graham Marsden]

Incidentally, a running lead when barbel fishing straight off the rod top is exactly the same as a fixed lead (fish safety apart) as the fish will be pulling on the rod whatever happens to the lead and line.

Here's an extract from an article I wrote for Coarse Fisherman magazine in reply to an article on slack line fishing by Ken Townley.

 

[geoffmaynard]

Yes your spot on ....the big lead acts as the pivot point, thats why if a running lead is working as it should its not possible to have a drop back. Every take will lift the indicator. If you get a drop back your lead is moving.

As you say for it to work like that the lead needs to be really big..and also as you suggest a large bore run ring should help as well....it probably also helps to add a link swivel or something flexible to the run ring that attaches it the lead so it can «*fold round*» so to speak on the take as well.

Hmm. Not too sure about this. This system may well work for bream or roach but a lot depends on the strength of the fish. A six ounce lead weighs about 2 ounces in water, which to a 15lb pike (or even a 6lb barbel) is nothing at all. It can pick up the 4 ounce bait AND the six ounce lead and swim towards the angler just as easily as away from him. The same applies to carp, tench or any other decent sized strong fish.

 

[Philip]

Hmm. Not too sure about this. This system may well work for bream or roach but a lot depends on the strength of the fish. A six ounce lead weighs about 2 ounces in water, which to a 15lb pike (or even a 6lb barbel) is nothing at all. It can pick up the 4 ounce bait AND the six ounce lead and swim towards the angler just as easily as away from him. The same applies to carp, tench or any other decent sized strong fish.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you but how can the fish regardless of its size "pick up the 4oz bait and 6oz lead and swim towards the angler" if the lead is working as a true running lead and sliding freely on the line ?

 

[Stealph Viper]

Surely the lead will only slide on the line up until the point where the fish passed the lead when swimming towards you, then the lead can only slide downwards, which would in theory then reach a point where it can no longer slide and should then tighten up to the fish causing the hook to penetrate deeper.

The backwards Bolt Rig, has been invented

Or should that be tlob gir .........................

 

[captain carrott]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you but how can the fish regardless of its size "pick up the 4oz bait and 6oz lead and swim towards the angler" if the lead is working as a true running lead and sliding freely on the line ?

it cant this is why it works, with lighter leads the friction between the line and the run ring can make it slip but once the lead gets big enough the naysayers are once again talking out their crevice

 

[Bully]

Well, what this goes to prove is that no one knows the "answer". It is all opinion.

The one thing I want to go back to is the whole concept of slack lines. I may have mis-understood Graham's article, but I think he was basically saying that his colleagues article in CF was saying - heavy lead, running rig, lead core, flying back lead and then slacking the line to hug the bottom?

Why?

I tend to still use a very standard bolt rig, pull tight and then gradually pay out line so it "hugs" as much as possible the bottom. I see little value using lead core and flying back leads (although I do still use a back lead occasionally) because the line will sink. I only do this to get the line out of the way of moving fish.

I dont worry if the line is bowed or not. You pull a bowed line. It doesn't pull the slack first.....it just pulls through the line so it doesn't minimise detection.

Lifes to short!!

 

[geoffmaynard]

Even a very heavy lead set up as a running set-up will shift when a good fish takes the bait. Even more so in a river where the current is putting pressure on the rig the whole time.

 

[darrengeorge]

Incidentally, a running lead when barbel fishing straight off the rod top is exactly the same as a fixed lead (fish safety apart) as the fish will be pulling on the rod whatever happens to the lead and line.

That depends on from what context you are looking at the rigs. In some aspects the two rigs behave quite differently. It also depends on where you are casting in relation to the direction of the flow.

My running rig is deployed for reasons other than the misguided attempt to form some sort of pivot or pulley system to aid bite detection and/or reduce resistance... resistance is good in small doses.

I've not read the article that Ken wrote, but I know that one angler who helped kick off the running rig movement again in carp fishing, advocates using just enough lead to cast the distance - and no more. Usually around an ounce. He _wants_ the lead to bounce and trip along the bottom...

 

[Philip]

Darren its not a misguided attempt to create a pivotal point.

I agree it may be a flawed concept in many cases as we all agree that most of the time the lead is going to move but the whole idea of a running lead is to sit in situ and the line then pulls through the eye freely to the rod..thats also why the size of the fish or current has little if anything to do with it.

I think what it comes down to is peoples interpretation of what "running lead" means. I get the feeling many people on here interpret a "running lead" to simply mean a lead that slides freely on the line.....

My interpretation of a running lead is based on what I think is the orginal idea and if you like purest form which is absolutely to create a pivotal point with the lead staying in situ.

Anything else is a B*******ization of the original concept and to me is not a true running lead...sorry thats how I see it ...or perhaps its me that is mis interpreting the original idea...

Bet this is why Graham started the thread as he knew the subject always kicks off some healthy debate !

 

[captain carrott]

you're spot on philip.

 

[Steve Spiller]

On my little bit of river a fixed paternoster is the dogs nuts! 15/20 yards wide, hardly no flow.

Weighted and positioned correctly of course, with the rod at the right/correct angle.....

 

[alan whittington]

Steve i dont know what fish you target on the paternoster but without doubt for chub on breadflake with the weight balanced correctly it can be difficult to fail on a species which is adept at giving a wrap round without connection.

 

[Graham Marsden]

Perhaps running line is a more accurate description but we know it as a running lead. I see a running lead as one that remains in position while the fish pulls the line through the swivel. If the lead moves then the line is not running freely which means it is a semi-fixed rig.

My contention is that you need an excessive amount of lead, or have that lead stuck in the bottom, in order to have a true running lead.

 

[Stealph Viper]

See, i always thought that the concept behind the running Lead was, to have a weight on the line heavy enough to cast out to your desired fishing spot, and then, when the fish picked up the bait and took off, the lead was free to run along the line and if you got snapped off at the Main Line the Lead would just come away. The rod itself being pulled round, or, the Angler picking the rod up was what set the hook, or, the 2oz lead being lifted off the bottom as the fish swam away.



The idea of having 10oz (i know it's a slight exaggeration) of weight so that the fish can pull the line without disturbing the weight, just baffles me and seems silly from a practical fishing point of view.

 

[tigger]

My contention is that you need an excessive amount of lead, or have that lead stuck in the bottom, in order to have a true running lead.

I think the line can run through the swivel on the weight even if you use a small bomb sized weight or link ledger so long as your ring/mono attachment is large enough so as the line can pass through it easily, your fishing pretty close by and there's not a lot of flow or still water.

 

[Frothey]

why is it that we seem to think carp can "detect" a hook in their mouth, and the difference in weight between a freebie and a hookbait, but not feel the drag of the line/lead/indicator when they swim off?

 

[Graham Marsden]

I think the line can run through the swivel on the weight even if you use a small bomb sized weight or link ledger so long as your ring/mono attachment is large enough so as the line can pass through it easily, your fishing pretty close by and there's not a lot of flow or still water.

The lighter the lead the more chance it will move when the fish picks up the bait. Remember, this is in water when a light lead will be even lighter.

why is it that we seem to think carp can "detect" a hook in their mouth, and the difference in weight between a freebie and a hookbait, but not feel the drag of the line/lead/indicator when they swim off?

Sorry Dave, who's saying they can't feel the drag of the line/lead/indicator when they swim off?