Safety lead Clips

[Dave Rothery]

fair enough, but then what do bream anglers use? their rigs arent safe either. or do we use 3lb line just incase we lose a rig. but then a roach isnt going to snap 3lb, how about an 8oz hooklentgh. i know thats not what your suggesting, but i dont think there is a truely "safe" rig in existance. you can only do so much.

 

[Gary Knowles]

Graham - precicely.

They should be called 'Carp safety clips' or 'silver fish thether clips' both are an accurate description...

The answer to Grahams question is that we can't stop smaller, weaker fish from picking up the bait. So IMHO these clips should be banned unless the water is carp only....

Cakey..I love you to by the way ;o)

 

[Gary Knowles]

"what do bream anglers use? their rigs arent safe either"..

bit of a sweeping statement that I think Dave!

 

[GrahamM]

Dave, you're jumping again! It's not an anti carp angler thing this issue, it's an anti-rig thing that carp anglers, barbel anglers and some other species anglers use.

The problem is with the rig, not the angler, or rather the problem is with the 'spin' that's been put on the rig that doesn't make it clear that it's only safe for carp, or other fish of similar size and strength.

 

[GrahamM]

Whilst on the subject of bream rigs, of course there are some unsafe bream rigs. But do you know what the biggest difference is with bream rigs (and other smaller species rigs)?

They use hooklengths that are weaker than the main line. Which is the safest anti-tether rig of the lot. And that is NOT the case with most rigs for the bigger species.

 

[Stuart Dennis]

so for the purpose of this thread and pulling on the experince of Gary, Graham, Dave and the rest of you, we should be able to agree on what would be the most safest rig currently available?

What would you suggest guys?

 

[Stuart Dennis]

I'm back five minutes and already find myself agreeing with Graham (DOH!). Ok I agree Graham, but using a stonger hooklength against the strength of the mainline is the easist way of spreading out the pressure on both the lines. Whats the ideal answer?

 

[GrahamM]

I agree with Dave in that there is no such thing as a 100% safe rig. But I reckon the safest rig you can get is one that uses a running lead and a hooklink that is weaker than the main line. Combine that with a barbless hook and that's about as safe an anti-tether rig as you can get.

(The virtues or otherwise of barbless hooks is another issue)

Yes, I have used rigs with stronger hooklengths than the main line, fixed paternoster rigs for bream, etc, But I'm not one for preaching anti-tether this, anti-tether that, every time I spot something that could possibly cause a slight problem.

Like most pike anglers I used wire traces that were stronger than the main line, and plenty still do, but now I use braided main line that is stronger than the wire trace.

The only way we can keep improving is by debating these things, but I really dislike the preachers, who we've had on this site from time to time, who prowl the net and the fishing journals looking for anti-tether rigs (in their opinion) and other rigs that could, possibly, cause a problem.

We often take these things too far, and handicap ourselves uneccessarily. In other countries they laugh at us for no matter how far you take the anti-tether thing, barbed/barbless hooks, and other contentious, similar issues, you will never, ever, escape the fact that all of us stick hooks in fish and haul them into landing nets.

How is it we can get heated debate about anti-tether, etc, and still do that with no conscience at all? How do we reconcile that one and remain logical?

Sometimes I wonder where some of us are coming from.

 

[Stuart Dennis]

It?s a really tough justification. Years ago I used to try and deny that fishing was a cruel sport and state that the fish can?t feel a thing. These days I?m open and honest to at least myself and state that I won?t use barbless as imho they act as a cheese slicers, I know puling a fish out of its normal environment isn?t necessarily fair, (but hey that?s fishing), but, on getting them in I apply as much comfort and protection for the carp as I possibly can. It won?t make it right for the anti?s but it sits fine with me!

 

[Dave Rothery]

that wasn't a bite graham. all i was getting at is that a paternoster (for example) is no way safe, even if thee hooklength is weaker, as a small fish still cant break the hooklength and is trailing a bomb. i already said i use running rigs and OCCASIONALLY helicopters. most running rigs end up as tether rigs in weedy waters as the line normally springs back and tangles the weed, or shockleader knots collect the weed anyway

 

[GrahamM]

The difference is that when a fish trails a lead on a weaker hooklink and then that lead gets anchored somewhere, chances are that the fish will be able to break the hooklength, or slip a barbless hook, and escape. And especially so when the link that joins the bomb/feeder to the swivel is even weaker than the main line and the hooklink.

But it comes down to what Stuart says in the end, you fish with what you personally are happy with, safety-wise, and providing you're not using something outrageous, that's about all you can do.

It's a tough one to find an answer that everybody can accept, or come to terms with. And I don't suppose we ever will.

 

[Dave Rothery]

you can only do so much......

 

[Gary Knowles]

Dave/Stu/all,

Paternoster rigs are quite safe as long as it's a running paternoster not a fixed one.

Graham sums up what I feel really. Its about education. The clips in question are marketed as 'SAFETY CLIPS', yes they are aimed primarily at carp and therefore carp anglers but other anglers use them as well.

A thinking angler understands his rigs but a huge amount of anglers dont. They blindly use what their peers recommend be them carp anglers, specci anglers or whatever. It is for this reason I object to the name these clips have been given by the manufacturers as a lot of people will use them blindly and I'll say it again these clips are in no way safe for anything other than big, strong fish.

I'm not whiter than white, I have, and still do use (occasionally) use a 2 hook fixed paternoster for my bream fishing but in all cases only on waters and swims that I know do not contain snags (like the big shallow bowls which are the Cheshire meres). I also appreciate that should I crack off then I am effectivley putting a tether rig out there. It's a small risk but one I'm prepared to take. So I agree that you can only do so much and we all make judgement as to where we draw the line.

What concerns me is a lot of carp anglers (not all, but a lot) detest fish such as bream because they have the audicity to take a carefully presented bait aimed at carp. And I honestly belive there is an element that will think "I don't give a shit if bream are tethered, it's safe enough for a carp"

I stand by what I say, these clips are very poorly labeled. They are in no way safe for the majority od fish that swim in our waters.

 

[Budgie Burgess]

This anti tether/safe rig argument has been going on for years.I have argued it on many occaision,on forums,at meetings and on the bank.I once got took to task over the fact that the classic sunken pat rig I use for piking was not safe as it would not fall apart in the event of a breakage.I had to point out that due too the treble hooks the only safe pike rig was one that landed them!Similar arguments about feeder rigs as well.As allready pointed out by Graham most of these types of rigs have a much lighter hook length.Now too the crunch.Most of this fanatical preaching re safty/non tether rigs comes from Carp anglers.(Please bear with me a while Dave!)Admirable that it is that they have all fish's welfare at heartthey should remember that it is a problem that occurs much more frequently in carp angling than other areas.Unfortunately MOST of these MODERN carp anglers have no experience of other types of angling.As I said their concern for fish welfare is comendable but when they try to carry over Carp ethics into other areas it is seen only as holier than though preaching.

 

[Dave Rothery]

it might sound like i'm on the carp defensive, but i've already said i dont like clips as i dont think theyre "safe". running rigs, whether paternosters or whatever, still leave the fish attatched to a long length of line. i rescued a fish out of manor last year that had about 50yds of line trailing - no lead - but a big ball of weed on the line. how do you stop that one? you cant.

gary - i dont mind catching bream as it shows the rig is working. i know there are those that dont like them (a lot - thats a sweeping statement!) but they wont care anyway. i dont think the labelling matters as those going for silverfish are hardly likely to be using them anyway. this is an honest question - have you seen them reccomended for bream/tench etc? surely this type of thread would be useful on the coarse thread than the carp thread then?

 

[Dave Rothery]

so why is it budgie? shouldnt other anglers care for their fish too, especially in these anti fishing days? i've even been known to use my unhooking mat for bream and tench.........

 

[Gary Knowles]

Dave,

you are not grasping my point I feel here.

'a lot' isn't a sweeping statement, as I personally know a lot of carp anglers who detest bream. Had I said 'the majority', or 'all carp anglers' then it would have been a sweeping statement.

"those going for silverfish are hardly likely to be using them anyway"...isn't that exactly my point. Carp/specci anglers who use 'safety clips' are putting silver fish/bream/chub/etc. at risk so the quarrel/attempt at enlightenment is with them, not match anglers.

"this is an honest question - have you seen them reccomended for bream/tench etc?"... yes I have, but I don't understand why you ask..

"surely this type of thread would be useful on the coarse thread than the carp thread then?"...This is where I think you really are missing the point I'm trying to make. This type of thread I feel is most useful on the part of the forum which is visited by anglers that uses these clips most often....which is,the carp section !

although I would point out I didn't start this thread..

 

[Stuart Dennis]

Budgie, you said "should remember that it is a problem that occurs much more frequently in carp angling than other areas"

and.... in your opinion, why do you think that is?

 

[Dave Rothery]

"this is an honest question"....i asked cos i am suprised anyone WOULD reccommend them....unless they're sponsored?

i do really(really!) understand where youre coming from gary, i just dont know what we can do about it. most carp set ups will tether small fish running rig or not.

 

[Stuart Dennis]

An argument never to be won unfortunately! If you?ve come into fishing via a 6 foot boat road, 20lb line, size one hook and fifty maggots hoping to tempt any species as a young lad, then you would have learnt by trial and error that the way to catch any fish is to learn by your mistakes and to improve with age and putting the hours in.
At a ripe old age of 34, I fear I?m sounding like an man, however after fishing for some 28 years now and coming into the sport as mentioned above at 6 years of age, I can speak from a certain amount of experience.

I?m sure across these years I?ve tethered my fair share of fish, we all have! In fact we could never state we haven?t because we would never know. All you can do is try your hardest to fish as safely as possible. After coming up through the ranks of fishing you learn about how to handle fish, how to play fish whether that?s a small gudgeon or stickleback or a specimen perch. You take care and you pay special attention to detail i.e. another breathing living creature.

We can all go on about those ?other anglers? or the ?newcomers? who haven?t experienced silverfish, tench, perch, barbel and every other specie except carp and who went straight into carp fishing ?coz that?s ware the bigguns are, and all I want is a biggun?, but unfortunately it?s down to us to educate them, help them and guide them into using safe(r) rigs. Help them understand how to handle and play fish as well as appreciating their surroundings. In not doing so is just pure ignorance, because if we leave it someone else to do, it won?t get done and if it won?t get done, we?re have the anti?s breathing down our neck and we?ll eventually lose the lot!

My fishing is precious, my time is precious and sometimes the last thing I want to do is start trying to educate someone on the bank to work harder for their fishing, but in not doing so, who?s going to lose?