The case for culling Otters

bennygesserit

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Phil, Isn't the contention that several illegal and unrecorded releases were made? I'd be interested in your experiences or views on illegal re-introductions.

Have to say on a personal note your posts and references on the subject are a breath of fresh air and have shed light on the realities of the situation for me. Really appreciate the information. :)

As otters are thriving why would this happen , isn't it more likely someone is rehabilitating injured animals or orphaned cubs ?

Agree with TBO's posting though - very good.

Also good to hear the opposition's view too - especially as I do not fish rivers.
 

Chris Hammond ( RSPB ACA PAC}

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As otters are thriving why would this happen , isn't it more likely someone is rehabilitating injured animals or orphaned cubs ?

Agree with TBO's posting though - very good.

Also good to hear the opposition's view too - especially as I do not fish rivers.

I've no idea, hence my asking Phil of his experiences or views. I do know a number of creditable people, including Hugh Miles, (The first cameraman to film otters for the Beeb.) believe it to be true though.
 

The bad one

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Phil, Isn't the contention that several illegal and unrecorded releases were made? I'd be interested in your experiences or views on illegal re-introductions.

Have to say on a personal note your posts and references on the subject are a breath of fresh air and have shed light on the realities of the situation for me. Really appreciate the information. :)

Chris I've heard the so-called claims of clandestine breeding down the years but give them little if any credence and for these reasons.

First you have to capture or find the breeding stock. The find could be injured otters, which is possible may be to find one, but more than one? Very doubtful unless you are conspiring with others on a regional/national scale. The old adage here is pertinent, “the more that know about something, the more likely it will leak out!”

Capture means to trap them, running the risk of the traps being discovered possibly with an animal inside by river users. Because otters are not generally creature of habit and the size of the territory, means the trap could have to be there for many days, dramatically increasing the risk of discovery by someone. Otter traps are also a large piece of equipment 5 ft by 2 ft squire minimum. Given the lovability of otters in the British consciousness, any such traps, particularly contain an animal, would be reported to the police ASAP I’d think. That would in turn go through to the Wildlife Crimes Officer as a priority. They would make every effort to apprehend the trap setters. To a WCO this would be a big job and crime to solve, earning mass brownie points with the high-ups, when they are appraising their work and progress they are making in it.
I know this from conversations I’ve had with WCO in my region about many things wildlife. These guys live breath wildlife and solving the crimes around it because of the passion they have for it. The role of WCO is more a vocation than a police officers job.

The only other way I can think of for capture relates to the birthing holt but won’t go into detail for obvious reasons.

Assuming the obstacles above were overcome by an individual and or group, they would need at least 3 mature animals, one male two females of two or more years old for it to be a viable proposition. Otters become sexually mature at 2. A large secluded and secure area split into a minimum of 3 pens including small pond 6X6 ft in each. The mature animals would have to be kept separate to stop them fighting. A constant supply of fish to feed the animals with, probably and initially live until they were weaned onto deads and probably sea fish for ease of supply.
Otters when awake, feeding or playing are quite noisy animals constantly calling, low growling and snorting and more so when they have cubs. Without such seclusion of say a remote small holding or farm where the pens are, they would quickly draw attention to themselves and be noticed by someone. The likelihood being the people keeping them would be asked questions about them by neighbours, friends, visitors and possible reporting for keeping them.

Again assuming an individual/group got around the above, at best they could only breed a maximum of 6 cubs per 15 months and more likely half that and a maximum of 6 litters per brood female’s life as the animals only live 5-7 years in captivity.

Despite all the stories about clandestine breeding and to the best of my knowledge no one has ever been reported or caught for illegally keeping otters. Nor has any traps ever been found.
The effort, commitment and secrecy need to breed otters clandestinely on a scale the stories would have us believe just doesn’t add up. So because of all of the above and as I said Chris, I give it little credence and view it as an urban myth.
 

Paul Boote

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Good stuff all round, bad one - perfect antidote to all the politicking, hearsay, conspiracy theory, lies, damned lies and statistics, and pitiable displays of outrage and victimhood we have seen flying around in Angling over the past several years.
 

Peter Jacobs

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Despite all the stories about clandestine breeding and to the best of my knowledge no one has ever been reported or caught for illegally keeping otters.

Isn't that just the definition of . . . . . Clandestine?

Last weekend I saw another roadkill Otter about a mile and a half from the nearest stream, and above Salisbury.

That makes 2 in the past 2 months . . . . . . . . .
 

Paul Boote

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If I - Me, Moi - have got four of them in my shed ready to unleash upon a prime Southern carp syndicate of my choice, just think of the thousands of other people who surely must be doing the same....
 

bennygesserit

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Isn't that just the definition of . . . . . Clandestine?

Last weekend I saw another roadkill Otter about a mile and a half from the nearest stream, and above Salisbury.

That makes 2 in the past 2 months . . . . . . . . .


Peter are you suggesting this is a real indication of a massive increase in otter numbers ? Do you see them when you are fishing too ?
 

Peter Jacobs

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Peter are you suggesting this is a real indication of a massive increase in otter numbers ? Do you see them when you are fishing too ?


No, not at all, just saying that its a bit strange to see 2 roadkill Otters in successive months, and quite away from the nearest stream or river.

I haven't seen an Otter anywhere on the Test or the Itchen where I fish, but have seen them on the lower Hampshire Avon and the River Stour both last season and this.
 

Chris Hammond ( RSPB ACA PAC}

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Peter are you suggesting this is a real indication of a massive increase in otter numbers ? Do you see them when you are fishing too ?

I certainly know of a number of otter sightings locally and have encountered them several times myself on local rivers in the past five years. Previous to that I'd never seen one before in my home county and I've been fishing local waters for forty plus years. There's no argument as to whether their numbers have increased dramatically in my area, they most certainly have, and I for one am over the moon about it.

I understand that they might be present in numbers which present pressure on fisheries in some areas but around here I haven't seen evidence that they are 'ruining' fisheries. I'm afraid the majority of wildlife lovers, like me, would accept some collateral damage if it means the odd glimpse of these incredible animals.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 ----------

Chris I've heard the so-called claims of clandestine breeding down the years but give them little if any credence and for these reasons.

First you have to capture or find the breeding stock. The find could be injured otters, which is possible may be to find one, but more than one? Very doubtful unless you are conspiring with others on a regional/national scale. The old adage here is pertinent, “the more that know about something, the more likely it will leak out!”

Capture means to trap them, running the risk of the traps being discovered possibly with an animal inside by river users. Because otters are not generally creature of habit and the size of the territory, means the trap could have to be there for many days, dramatically increasing the risk of discovery by someone. Otter traps are also a large piece of equipment 5 ft by 2 ft squire minimum. Given the lovability of otters in the British consciousness, any such traps, particularly contain an animal, would be reported to the police ASAP I’d think. That would in turn go through to the Wildlife Crimes Officer as a priority. They would make every effort to apprehend the trap setters. To a WCO this would be a big job and crime to solve, earning mass brownie points with the high-ups, when they are appraising their work and progress they are making in it.
I know this from conversations I’ve had with WCO in my region about many things wildlife. These guys live breath wildlife and solving the crimes around it because of the passion they have for it. The role of WCO is more a vocation than a police officers job.

The only other way I can think of for capture relates to the birthing holt but won’t go into detail for obvious reasons.

Assuming the obstacles above were overcome by an individual and or group, they would need at least 3 mature animals, one male two females of two or more years old for it to be a viable proposition. Otters become sexually mature at 2. A large secluded and secure area split into a minimum of 3 pens including small pond 6X6 ft in each. The mature animals would have to be kept separate to stop them fighting. A constant supply of fish to feed the animals with, probably and initially live until they were weaned onto deads and probably sea fish for ease of supply.
Otters when awake, feeding or playing are quite noisy animals constantly calling, low growling and snorting and more so when they have cubs. Without such seclusion of say a remote small holding or farm where the pens are, they would quickly draw attention to themselves and be noticed by someone. The likelihood being the people keeping them would be asked questions about them by neighbours, friends, visitors and possible reporting for keeping them.

Again assuming an individual/group got around the above, at best they could only breed a maximum of 6 cubs per 15 months and more likely half that and a maximum of 6 litters per brood female’s life as the animals only live 5-7 years in captivity.

Despite all the stories about clandestine breeding and to the best of my knowledge no one has ever been reported or caught for illegally keeping otters. Nor has any traps ever been found.
The effort, commitment and secrecy need to breed otters clandestinely on a scale the stories would have us believe just doesn’t add up. So because of all of the above and as I said Chris, I give it little credence and view it as an urban myth.

Thanks again Phil. All of that makes sense to me. :)
 

The bad one

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Isn't that just the definition of . . . . . Clandestine?

Last weekend I saw another roadkill Otter about a mile and a half from the nearest stream, and above Salisbury.

That makes 2 in the past 2 months . . . . . . . . .

Peter if that the best you can pick out of all that I wrote to suggest Illegal breeding and releases are taking place then it's a poor argument.

There is nothing unusual in finding dead otters (roadkill) miles form any watercourse.
1. It’s how they move about and colonise new areas and find new territory, and will at times use roads in this process.
2. Road accidents account for 65% of the 1300 carcases Liz Chadwick and Vic Simpson have autopsied over the last 10 years.
3. Had you reported the roadkill sightings to Liz someone would have collected it to add to the above collection. And if you ask for it, they’ll report back to you by way of a short report, its sex, age at death how it died and a DNA profile including who and what colony it was related too, if they have that on their database.
The likely reason they were roadkill are they were young otters seeking out their own territory after being left by the mother and forced by other otters with territories close by to move on.
An old dog(s) otter that has been displaced by losing a fight to hold its established territory to a younger fitter dog. The term “Transient Otters” is given to both above.

I'd also be stunned if you hadn’t seen otters on the Avon and Stour, Blood hell mate if one can be seen in the centre of Manchester and it was and caught on CCTV then seeing them in such a rural setting is a given.
 
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Peter Jacobs

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I wasn't trying to "pick" at anything other than to point out the obvious . . . . . i.e. that if it wasn't a clandestine operation than many would have known about it . . . . .

The comparison I was trying to show was that for those rivers to be in relative close proximity then it is strange not to have seen Otters on the Test and Itchen, when, as you say, you can see them in the centre of Manchester.

The conclusion is also obvious, albeit not a scientific one . . . . . .
 

bennygesserit

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I wasn't trying to "pick" at anything other than to point out the obvious . . . . . i.e. that if it wasn't a clandestine operation than many would have known about it . . . . .

The comparison I was trying to show was that for those rivers to be in relative close proximity then it is strange not to have seen Otters on the Test and Itchen, when, as you say, you can see them in the centre of Manchester.

The conclusion is also obvious, albeit not a scientific one . . . . . .

Its not obvious to ne are you implying that the otter is changing in some way and becoming urbanised ?
 

Peter Jacobs

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Benny,

Lets put it this way, the Avon and the Stour are mainly Coarse fish rivers whereas the Test and the Itchen are mainly Trout and Salmon venues that are regularly tended by river keepers.

Now, a one rod beat on either will cost you in the region of between £150 and £500 a day or somewhere between £1300 and £5000 per season . . . . . . . .

I wonder how many anglers would be renewing their syndication if their favourite beats had been decimated by Otters?
 

mick b

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Peter,
I saw some very fresh Otter tracks on the middle Test earlier this year, I mentioned them to the river keeper who had also seen the them.
There are also good videos of them being on the reserve at Hillhead.
 

mick b

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Yes Peter it is the Meon at Hillhead.
My stamping ground runs from Langstone down to Poole and Im on some part of every waterway within that region at some time during each year and Im always on the lookout for anything unusual, and yes, Otters are present, but not in the numbers the 'kill 'em all brigade' would have us believe.
 

Peter Jacobs

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To be totally honest I am sort of really neutral on the issue; would I have preferred not to see them reintroduced?
Yes, undoubtedly so, and even then only after full and complete consultation with the fishery owners beforehand.
What these people did, in my opinion, was very irresponsible and myopic.

Would I support a cull if it were proved that one were needed, then again, yes, but only a probable 'yes' answer. We have now seen the fuss that some have made at the beginning of the Badger cull so we could expect something akin to that, maybe a bit bigger.

Can I fully understand why some fishery owners make the decision to reduce the numbers of Otters on their land?
Again, yes, it is a simple case of economics for them; they never asked for these classic predators to be let loose so why should they suffer loss of earnings/livlihood from the act?

It is a difficult question and one that is a far cry from the simple "here are the facts" sort of information.
 
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