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Oh, the inconvenience of it all. Bit like shooting the neighbours because they're spoiling your view.
The case for culling Otters
- Thread starter Colin Brett
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Oh, the inconvenience of it all. Bit like shooting the neighbours because they're spoiling your view.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
I agree with a lot of this Peter but the thing is the facts are required to make a proper judgement.
It still seems like "management" of otters isn't dealing with the real issues besides you could only realistically see it having an effect on an impoverished river that doesn't have a steady stream ( intended ) of replacement fish growing on.
No, it is nothing at all like that Paul.
It is far more like shooting Foxes because they are raiding your chickens and/or newly born lambs!
---------- Post added at 14:43 ---------- Previous post was at 14:37 ----------
I totally agree Benny, my main argument is that we (anglers and fishery owners) are now having to garner the facts after the event.
Stable doors and Horse spring immediately to mind!
The research should have been done, in association with the relevant organisations before the introduction of these Class A Predators
Even though the Angling Trust were not yet formed at the time of these ill-conceived introductions, the Trout and Salmon Association most certainly was, having been formed in 1903.
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sam vimes
Well-known member
Even that only applies to the more commercial operations. For most waters it's closer to shooting a fox in an RSPB bird sanctuary.
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Foxes and most other designated "vermin" are do-able. Reason why I have banged on about otters for so long is that I know in my gut and water that otters - FOR WHATEVER REASON (unless they suddenly go infant-killing rabid) - are NOT do-able, know that anyone or any grouping doing otters for their own selfish reasons are saying one thing and thing only: "Come on heavens, come on sky, fall in on me! Dare ya!"
By Heaven, how the public and the media would bring it down crashing to crush such blinkered, arrogant sorts.
. . . . then you, or anyone else, can hardly blame some riparian owners for being shall we say, "clandestine" in their approach to the problem, can we?
Inasmuch as, what the great unwashed and uninformed public don't know, or see, they don't worry or make a fuss about!
Or, as another cute and furry type is often heard to say:
Squeeks, SIMPLES!
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Peter: nothing personal towards you, but do watch your words, the hem of your Democracy Slip is showing.
sam vimes
Well-known member
I don't disagree at all with the suggestion that calling for a cull is doomed to failure and a total PR disaster for angling. However, that doesn't mean that it total lunacy to suggest that it might not be a bad idea in some places.
From a selfish point of view, there's little need in my locale. A long established, and truly wild, population of otters has existed on my local river for as long as I've been fishing. This population has remained pretty stable regardless of the re-introduction programme. I do feel a little sorry for those in surrounding areas that the reintroduced otters have been forced into by the existing population pushing them out.
From a selfish point of view, there's little need in my locale. A long established, and truly wild, population of otters has existed on my local river for as long as I've been fishing. This population has remained pretty stable regardless of the re-introduction programme. I do feel a little sorry for those in surrounding areas that the reintroduced otters have been forced into by the existing population pushing them out.
The bad one
Well-known member
Today's eyes looking back at yesterday Peter! Re-read what I wrote. There was no requirement for anyone to do that! The Science of understanding wasn’t there in the form of EcIA.
And for the record Peter there were no releases in your neck of the woods as it still had a relic population. The nearest releases to your area were on the Thames valley and that came at the end of the release programme in 1999.
Are you seriously suggesting your River Keepers are illegally culling otters on those river you mention?
I wouldn't dream of such a thing Phil, I simply stated that if it were to happen then it would be with some understanding from anglers who pay a fortune to fish some of these chalk streams . . . . . . . .
As for re-reading, not necessary; as far as I am aware anyone with a scintilla of common sense would know that (requirement or not) that there would be implications to the release of Otters on the river environment.
As some of the major users of said rivers, it stands to all logical reason that consultations were necessary, and agreements sought prior to release.
As for my area, I'd never seen an Otter on the Avon prior to 2000 having fished it all my life. So, if there were no "official" releases in my area then I have to wonder how on earth they got here from the Thames valley, and that goes for the Stour as well.
I am also being told of Otter sightings on the Wylye and the Nadder as well from my local clubs and associations.
bennygesserit
Well-known member
If there are no nearby introductions and the use of the associated pesticides has been withdrawn then your otters must have moved into your area naturally or do you think every Magpie you see is a released one ?
jack sprat
Well-known member
The otters never disappeared from the upper Stour completely though far more prevalent nowadays. An area was set aside as a nature reserve at Bere Marsh near Child Okeford in 1978 where there was a holt.
Chris Hammond ( RSPB ACA PAC}
Well-known member
The programme is on TV right now (BBC1) and John Wilson has just appeared in a trailor for the Otter topic and described the otter as a 'Giant predatory rat with Doberman's teeth'.
...now if that doesn't get the public on our side I don't know what will!
...now if that doesn't get the public on our side I don't know what will!
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The programme is on TV right now (BBC1) and John Wilson has just appeared in a trailor for the Otter topic and described the otter as a 'Giant predatory rat with Doberman's teeth'.
...now if that doesn't get the public on our side I don't know what will!
Sic transit Gloria (in Thailand).
Throwing up in Gloria's van?
Joking aside I think there is a missing "mundi" in PB's post . . . . . .
sic gloria transit mundi . . . . . . .
(thus passes the glory of the world)
bennygesserit
Well-known member
He He latin jokes love em.
Why are our emblems and mottos given more significance in an ancient language? maybe to give a sense of history and place in the world but I suspect merely to stop the oiks ( not a word I would use ) from cottoning on.
I remember reading my Dad's blazer badge on remembrance day
"Honi Soi Qui Mal y pence" ( Evil to him that plots Evil )
This language was of course used for thousands of years by the cream of the Roman empire then preserved for hundreds of years more by the church and its Monasteries till eventually the cream of our nation spent all those many years with latin primers looking out on the cricket pitch while the rest of us where doing woodwork or watching the netball.
Still that language has been locked up now , digitised , stored , raided , made high availability in various offshore data warehouses or those that sit under mountains, locked in with the rest of humanity's knowledge ready for the push to the stars.
I was one of those who had to study and pass Latin when at school, but it didn't stop me from spending as much time as possible on the cricket pitches either . . . . . .
I always enjoyed Latin at school to be honest, and still try to keep my "hand in" all these years later.
PS, at an all boys boarding school there was no netball to watch either . . . . . . . I knew i'd always missed out on those sights . . . . . .
Coleus!
I always enjoyed Latin at school to be honest, and still try to keep my "hand in" all these years later.
PS, at an all boys boarding school there was no netball to watch either . . . . . . . I knew i'd always missed out on those sights . . . . . .
Coleus!
A few years ago I attended a dinner at which a representative from the Angling Trust talked about the problems facing angling, including increasing numbers of otters. His views on otters were:
Just over a hundred otters have been reared in captivity and introduced into the wild in England. Breeding otters is difficult to do, expensive, time consuming and requires a special licence.
Even though the number of otters in most of England declined from the 1950s onwards, there still remained a sizable population in South West England. These have successfully migrated eastwards as the environment for otters has improved.
---------- Post added at 08:18 ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 ----------
Here's an extract about otter restocking from a report "Otters - The Facts" from the Angling trust:
In the early 1980s, when it looked as though otters might be lost completely from England, the Nature Conservancy Council (now Natural England) worked with the Otter Trust to develop a reintroduction programme to repopulate parts of Eastern England with captive-bred otters. The intention was to try and ensure some continuation of occupancy and allow any surviving otters to interbreed with released ones and perhaps keep any locally adapted genes in the population. At that time there was no evidence of a natural recovery, but as this situation changed and there were signs of a slow natural recovery, most organisations involved in otter conservation preferred to rely on this rather than on re-introductions to restore otter populations in the UK.
The Otter Trust released 117 captive-bred otters between 1983 and 1999, mostly on East Anglian rivers, but with some elsewhere. Their last release was of 17 otters on the upper Thames catchment over a six-month period in 1999.
The Vincent Wildlife Trust released a further 49 rehabilitated animals (i.e. orphaned and injured wild otters kept in captivity until fit for release) between 1990 and 1996, many of these as part of a release programme in Yorkshire.
By the early 1990s it was clear that a strong natural recovery of otters from their strongholds in Wales and south-west England meant that reintroductions were no longer necessary, and by the end of the decade the Otter Trust’s programme was wound up. Now descendants of the released otters form only a tiny proportion of the otter population of England, and most wild otters are the result of the natural recovery of the species after the banning of toxic pesticides.
The Environment Agency, Natural England and the Wildlife Trusts concentrated on encouraging natural recovery through improving river habitat, and they continue to do so.
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MarkTheSpark
Senior Member
Here we go again; otters v anglers, and the outcome is predictably that otters win every time. Far more attractive than an old bloke in camo smoking fags on the bank.
John Wilson has long held fairly rabid views on otter predation; I sympathise, because it's undoubtedly true that, on some rivers, they've had a significant effect. But that's not true on other rivers, and the sooner we begin to understand what makes this so, the better.
We aren't going to find out if we don't let the scientists do their work, and the outcome may be fisheries improvements which will deter otters and increase fish recruitment; because at the core of the rivers' problems is stock recruitment.
Rivers have become cleaner in EA terms but not necessarily better for fish. When I moved to Peterborough, the Nene was a fairly turbid river all year, the run-off of nitrates ensuring the algae and other microbial life fairly sizzled. It didn't bother the bream, roach and chub, which were everywhere and in large numbers. The clarity of the Nene in summer now is trout-stream clarity, and I believe this is one of the problems.
Sight feeders like otters and cormorants must have a field day in these conditions, but more importantly, the old river board policy of tidying the banks and dredge for depth means there aren't enough overgrown places for fish to shelter. It's proven that cormorants predation is very much reduced where good fish cover has been introduced. Before man started managing rivers, this cover existed in the form of fallen trees and other obstacles to sight hunters.
As I have written here so many times, we won't get licences to shoot otters (though I'm sure a few otters already get 'lead poisoning). So angling has to devote its time to reversing the 'improvements' the rivers have been subjected to. In the first place, the preoccupation with containing floodwater has to be reversed; we need to persuade the EA to define flood meadows, and get landowners to manage them, which will mitigate flooding in towns, where it really IS a problem.
But somehow we also need to persuade the EA that rivers can cope with a little more nitrate pollution; after all, algae and single-celled animals, plus plants, are the building blocks of river ecology. The reason the EA has cracked down so hard on nitrates has nothing to do with ecology; it has to do with saving the water industry money as it tries to achieve EU targets for nitrate pollution.
I'm sorry that John Wilson is leaving the UK but he takes with him a point of view that has become redundant. It's not that he's wrong but that his solution belongs in Victorian Britain.
John Wilson has long held fairly rabid views on otter predation; I sympathise, because it's undoubtedly true that, on some rivers, they've had a significant effect. But that's not true on other rivers, and the sooner we begin to understand what makes this so, the better.
We aren't going to find out if we don't let the scientists do their work, and the outcome may be fisheries improvements which will deter otters and increase fish recruitment; because at the core of the rivers' problems is stock recruitment.
Rivers have become cleaner in EA terms but not necessarily better for fish. When I moved to Peterborough, the Nene was a fairly turbid river all year, the run-off of nitrates ensuring the algae and other microbial life fairly sizzled. It didn't bother the bream, roach and chub, which were everywhere and in large numbers. The clarity of the Nene in summer now is trout-stream clarity, and I believe this is one of the problems.
Sight feeders like otters and cormorants must have a field day in these conditions, but more importantly, the old river board policy of tidying the banks and dredge for depth means there aren't enough overgrown places for fish to shelter. It's proven that cormorants predation is very much reduced where good fish cover has been introduced. Before man started managing rivers, this cover existed in the form of fallen trees and other obstacles to sight hunters.
As I have written here so many times, we won't get licences to shoot otters (though I'm sure a few otters already get 'lead poisoning). So angling has to devote its time to reversing the 'improvements' the rivers have been subjected to. In the first place, the preoccupation with containing floodwater has to be reversed; we need to persuade the EA to define flood meadows, and get landowners to manage them, which will mitigate flooding in towns, where it really IS a problem.
But somehow we also need to persuade the EA that rivers can cope with a little more nitrate pollution; after all, algae and single-celled animals, plus plants, are the building blocks of river ecology. The reason the EA has cracked down so hard on nitrates has nothing to do with ecology; it has to do with saving the water industry money as it tries to achieve EU targets for nitrate pollution.
I'm sorry that John Wilson is leaving the UK but he takes with him a point of view that has become redundant. It's not that he's wrong but that his solution belongs in Victorian Britain.