noknot
Well-known member
Was Raspberry not a Mirror Carp?
What defines a truly English carp?
- Thread starter dezza
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kevclifford
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Chris,
Thomas Ford's fish farming activities occurred between 1880 and 1907, when his business was sold. He died in 1918 - so 1930 is way out. He started with trout and grayling so it was a few years after he started that his coarse fish activities developed. I doubt he actually bred any carp and suspect they came from Germany.
I know of no evidence that Thomas Ford ever stocked carp into Croxby Pond. They were certainly recorded prior to Ford's fish farming activities and Overbeck, of Croxby fame, believed they had been stocked in the Middle Ages.
There is nowadays strong evidence (archeological) with work by Professor Hoffman that discredits the idea that carp were disseminated first by monks as has often been suggested – more likely by secular bodies.
I think I've pretty much proved that small common carp were present in fish supplied by Donald Leney that derived from the Dutch farm. Donald was not consistent on this point and the volume of contemporaneous evidence is overwhelming that small commons were present in the Dutch fish.
I'd be very, very interested in your references (and perhaps even pay for them) that: "since the mid 1700s when what are generally called “King” carp started arriving in Britain."
There is an awful lot of nonsense written about carp races and I doubt if anyone can look at a carp and identify the race. There are literally thousand of hybrids races around Europe as well as feral crosses in the wild. Most of the old historic races such as the Galician and the Aischgrunder were effectively lost around the Second World War period after central Europe was devastated. "The carp closest to a natural, wild carp" is the wild carp. There are possibly still a few left in the Danube and a few other places in central Europe.
The Ropsha is a long-term selective cross between the Galician and the Amur wild carp carried out by the famous Russian Valentin Kirpitchnikov, developed for the harsh conditions in northern Russia.
The carp Leney imported may not have been Galician (more in my new book).
I don't think there is a race named the Royale. I think the term simply is a derivation of King carp. King carp were often named Royale carp in old UK literature. I know some anglers have referred to Royale as being a race but I can find no evidence amongst European carp scientists or literature.
To suggest "that most of the longer existing stocks of carp in the UK come from three races" Galician/Dinks/Italians is over-simplification.
Thomas Ford's fish farming activities occurred between 1880 and 1907, when his business was sold. He died in 1918 - so 1930 is way out. He started with trout and grayling so it was a few years after he started that his coarse fish activities developed. I doubt he actually bred any carp and suspect they came from Germany.
I know of no evidence that Thomas Ford ever stocked carp into Croxby Pond. They were certainly recorded prior to Ford's fish farming activities and Overbeck, of Croxby fame, believed they had been stocked in the Middle Ages.
There is nowadays strong evidence (archeological) with work by Professor Hoffman that discredits the idea that carp were disseminated first by monks as has often been suggested – more likely by secular bodies.
I think I've pretty much proved that small common carp were present in fish supplied by Donald Leney that derived from the Dutch farm. Donald was not consistent on this point and the volume of contemporaneous evidence is overwhelming that small commons were present in the Dutch fish.
I'd be very, very interested in your references (and perhaps even pay for them) that: "since the mid 1700s when what are generally called “King” carp started arriving in Britain."
There is an awful lot of nonsense written about carp races and I doubt if anyone can look at a carp and identify the race. There are literally thousand of hybrids races around Europe as well as feral crosses in the wild. Most of the old historic races such as the Galician and the Aischgrunder were effectively lost around the Second World War period after central Europe was devastated. "The carp closest to a natural, wild carp" is the wild carp. There are possibly still a few left in the Danube and a few other places in central Europe.
The Ropsha is a long-term selective cross between the Galician and the Amur wild carp carried out by the famous Russian Valentin Kirpitchnikov, developed for the harsh conditions in northern Russia.
The carp Leney imported may not have been Galician (more in my new book).
I don't think there is a race named the Royale. I think the term simply is a derivation of King carp. King carp were often named Royale carp in old UK literature. I know some anglers have referred to Royale as being a race but I can find no evidence amongst European carp scientists or literature.
To suggest "that most of the longer existing stocks of carp in the UK come from three races" Galician/Dinks/Italians is over-simplification.
dezza
Well-known member
Thanks for coming on this thread Kevin.
I tried very hard to get the facts of how carp came to South Africa. Certainly by consulting the records of the Rand Piscatorial Association (I was a committee member of this organisation) and the Cape Piscatorial Association, I was able to find out that they came from somewhere in Holland.
The largest South African Carp that there was any reasonable evidence for was the 80 odd pound monster that was found dead ca 1944, which came from the Bon Accord Dam just north of Pretoria. The photograph of this fish - a rather poor one - is still kept, I believe, in the records on the Rand Piscatorial Association. The fish was apparently stocked into Bon Accord ca 1911 just after the dam had flooded - hence the phenominal growth rate.
I tried very hard to get the facts of how carp came to South Africa. Certainly by consulting the records of the Rand Piscatorial Association (I was a committee member of this organisation) and the Cape Piscatorial Association, I was able to find out that they came from somewhere in Holland.
The largest South African Carp that there was any reasonable evidence for was the 80 odd pound monster that was found dead ca 1944, which came from the Bon Accord Dam just north of Pretoria. The photograph of this fish - a rather poor one - is still kept, I believe, in the records on the Rand Piscatorial Association. The fish was apparently stocked into Bon Accord ca 1911 just after the dam had flooded - hence the phenominal growth rate.
Nobby C (ACA)
Well-known member
I apologise for a bit of a thread drift here, (we're all guilty of that ), but , I'd like to know a little more about this new book you mentioned Kevin..........
Chris Frankish 2
Well-known member
Sorry Kevin
I'd just written an in depth reply to your post and I've just lost it all whilst looking something on the www
I'll get onto the job in the morning with a wide awake head.
Incidentally, when is the new book coming out?
---------- Post added at 23:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------
Okay, take 2,whisky in hand.. lets see if I can avoid losing everything this time
I don't think carp were bred at Caistor but merely held there before distribution. I visited there twice last year and spoke to the current owners who I'm sure it was that told me that the farm was sold to the Surrey Trout farm before Thomas Ford's demise and that it acted again for them as a holding/distribution place up until about 1930. They were still in contact with Mr Ford's descendants who now live in the States and were happy to talk about the history of the farm.
The ponds and some of the old sluices are still there and they've been trying to bring the site back to something like it once was before nature played her part.One of the holding pools from the 1880s has some history itself after the farm closed as a local school used it for swimming until a tragic drowning put and end to things.
I was invited to fish the pool which now holds trout and carp and succeeded in catching my first carp on a cane rod from there.
We discussed Croxby Pond because of it's locality and other than talk of how sad it is to see the lake as it is today we spoke about it's carp. I'm not sure whether my comments about fish coming from Thomas Ford's were because of 1) assumption it had happened because of it's close proximity to the farm 2) the Yarborough estate were named as clients on the photocopied price list and advert that they gave me or 3) the owners had made mention of it.
I don't have any notes to hand at the moment Kevin so I'm working from memory. (not always a good thing in my case
)I've been speaking to the Estate Manager about Croxby and he's going to explore the archives at the office for any documents relating to stockings at the lake when he has the time. I'm actually over there tomorrow so I'll see if I can chase him up about it.
I'd always thought it likely that Clarissa, at least, was from the initial stocking at Redmire but a lot of people I understand held the opinion that Yates' 43 and No Pelvics were also originals.
When I wrote the piece quoting the mid 1700s I was referring to a passage talking about a few "king carp" sent over from Germany as a gift to an estate owner here in England which I found in one of my books. Unless I've written 1700 erroneously and 1800 would have been correct (which by your response may be the case Kevin) I'll try to find my notes about which book I found the information in and will let you know.
(I really ought to write from notes and not from memory as I so often do, especially on the web)
You are of course right when it comes to the amount of "crosses" and "races" that have developed throughout both here in the UK and in Europe. For the purposes of a quick write up for a question on an internet forum I thought it best to keep things "condensed" whilst advising that there were a few different "races" that came over here to make up the carp that we now have in the UK rather than just the "Old English Galicians".
I did come across a German website advertising farmed Aischgrunder carp available for the table so these may still be available as a "race" if their claims are to be believed like the UK carp farm offering pure "Italians" (can't bring their name to mind but I'm not going to risk losing everythig again by looking them up lol).
Found them
http://www.futurefisheries.co.uk/the-fish-of-future-fisheries-ltd/carp-strains/
Its saddening to read your comments about wild carp now only "possibly" being still in the Danube and a few places in Central Europe. Despite what I've written about mirror carp naturally regressing to the fully scaled common variety of carp I still held out hope that one day I'd find myself fishing for true "wildies" somewhere in a forgotten corner of England. I'm supposing that you don't agree with the claims made by the people at Brayton Pond.
I've already mentioned your new book which I'm eagerly awaiting but even more so after your comment about Donald's carp!
The "Royale" name if I remember correctly was supposed to be down to some connection with one of the French kings, a Louis no doubt, but whatever their name they seem to be a very recogniseable type of carp. These are the fish sometimes referred to as Chanty fish aren't they?
True ,the suggestion that just three races were responsible for most of the longer standing stocks of carp here in the UK is an "over-simplification" but as I mentioned above it was a quick write up in answer to a question on a fishing forum so opens the issue up for further input and opinion from others.
Appreciate your comments and information Kev
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kevclifford
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Chris,
Yes, I've been to Caistor myself and spoken to Mr Robinson. However, the fact remains that Manor Fisheries were purchased in 1907 and became the Surrey Trout Farm & United Fisheries. I have a photo of a group of the school children swimming in one of the Caistor ponds with the teachers on the bank. Ford began with trout and grayling in 1880/81 and his coarse fish operations came some time after that, gradually expanding. In 1890 a 28lb common carp was speared at Croxby. Even for fast growing king carp hardly enough time for Ford to have stocked them! Would be interested in anything you come up with Chris, about Croxby Pond from the esate. Ford was visited several times by Lord Yarborough for advice and no doubt provided them with fish – but not Overbeck's carp I fancy. More likely he had some business relationship with Yarborough and perhaps used some of his Lordship's ponds for growing on/netting coarse fish etc. Certainly his small ponds at Caistor, supplied with cold water from the Wolds, were fine for trout and grayling but would not have generated much income from rearing coarse fish. The demise and present state of Croxby is nothing short of criminal. I saw it recently and it's just a puddle of a fraction of an acre near the dam. A couple of herons and a cormorant were feasting on the few remnants of fish trying to survive in a few inches of water. Very sad indeed to see it in such a state.
As I said I'd be very, very interested in any reference to your statement about king carp in the UK in either 1700 or 1800? I cannot come up with anything that early, although I'm not suggesting it isn't possible.
As I said there is an awful lot of pap talked about carp races - by anglers and even fish farmers. To get the true picture you need to talk to a modern day carp geneticist at one of the central European universities/government establishments (Czech, Poland, Germany) who has studies the subject and read up on the relevant historical literature. Not easy I admit as they don't really want to talk to plonkers like us but it's really the only way as, otherwise, most of it is a just a lot of hearsay.
The Aischgrunder was a very famous historical race but no modern European fish farmer worth his salt would use it nowadays even if it was available. There are many, far better strains available nowadays. But local German communities remember the Aischgrunder carp with cultural fondness in a sort of similar way, I guess, to coal pit communities in this country. I've seen German carp farms claiming to produce Aiscgrunder carp but take it with a large pinch of salt and I think they are just playing on its famous name.
I'm also not sure about this 'Italian' race business. Italy was never famed for it carp farming and having an Italian race is a bit like having a German race or a Polish race. I'm still researching Italy but suspect Italian fish farmers imported some races/strains from other countries as their brood stock. We then get into the definition of a what constitutes a carp race and a strain? Any specific info from anyone about Italian carp farming would be very welcome in my research.
I've said this before somewhere. In the early 70's fish importation was very simple for anyone who fancied making some quick money, could hire a transit van, had a few header tanks and hired a couple of BOC oxygen cylinders. Health certification was a nonsense. A host of 'importers' sprang up – Ken Ryder, Rags Locke, Alan Southern, plus several others, who all brought in vast quantities of carp (and other fish) for many years before our authorities started tightening up. The fish came mainly from Holland, Belgium and France - often purchased from European fish 'distributors' and not direct from fish farms. These distributors got them from anywhere they could to supply the demand. So in the 70s we had a huge number of carp that came from a massive variety of European sources. I would guess that these carp constitute quite a large proportion of the carp present in this country today.
Whilst looking for some papers on South Africa imports I came across a paper on the Ropsha carp - ref: The Selection of Ropsha Carp by Zonova and Kirpichnikov (1968). It seems that Kirpichnikov was generalising when he said in one of his books that the brood stock they used to create the Ropsha was Galician and Amur wild carp. I think what Kirpichnikov meant was that the brood stock consisted of Amur wild carp and carp that had derived at one time from Galician carp – they are described in the paper as "Non-selected mixed carp".
In any event I can find no actual reference to any ever being imported into the UK. Why would anyone want to bring them from Russia?
South Africa, Ron. Found a bit but think I have more somewhere. Sept 1859 C.A. Fairbridge of Cape Town introduced six carp from England (but elsewhere referred to a company F.R.G. Bavaria as being the original source). 1955 Aischgrunder carp were imported for breeding and placed in Lowveld Fisheries Research Station at Marble Hall. The well-known Dor strain was also imported from Isreal in 1967. I'm sure I have read of other imports though.
Still working on the book. Had hoped to have it out for Xmas (good time to sell books of course) but it looks like this deadline has slipped.
Kevin
---------- Post added at 04:12 ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 ----------
Oh, nearly forgot - wild carp. No Brayton Pond carp are not TRUE wild carp (sorry Fred & Paul)...
There are no TRUE wild carp in Britain, almost certainly never was. There are feral forms that over time have reverted and appear very similar to the Danubian wild carp. But the true wild carp occurs only in the area of its natural distribution. Once man started transporting (from the Roman's onwards) they began the process of domesticating and hence changing it. Mitochondrial DNA analysis confirms all this. If we want to call these feral forms that more or less look like wild carp, wild carp, then okay... but how then do you describe TRUE wild carp?
Kevin
Yes, I've been to Caistor myself and spoken to Mr Robinson. However, the fact remains that Manor Fisheries were purchased in 1907 and became the Surrey Trout Farm & United Fisheries. I have a photo of a group of the school children swimming in one of the Caistor ponds with the teachers on the bank. Ford began with trout and grayling in 1880/81 and his coarse fish operations came some time after that, gradually expanding. In 1890 a 28lb common carp was speared at Croxby. Even for fast growing king carp hardly enough time for Ford to have stocked them! Would be interested in anything you come up with Chris, about Croxby Pond from the esate. Ford was visited several times by Lord Yarborough for advice and no doubt provided them with fish – but not Overbeck's carp I fancy. More likely he had some business relationship with Yarborough and perhaps used some of his Lordship's ponds for growing on/netting coarse fish etc. Certainly his small ponds at Caistor, supplied with cold water from the Wolds, were fine for trout and grayling but would not have generated much income from rearing coarse fish. The demise and present state of Croxby is nothing short of criminal. I saw it recently and it's just a puddle of a fraction of an acre near the dam. A couple of herons and a cormorant were feasting on the few remnants of fish trying to survive in a few inches of water. Very sad indeed to see it in such a state.
As I said I'd be very, very interested in any reference to your statement about king carp in the UK in either 1700 or 1800? I cannot come up with anything that early, although I'm not suggesting it isn't possible.
As I said there is an awful lot of pap talked about carp races - by anglers and even fish farmers. To get the true picture you need to talk to a modern day carp geneticist at one of the central European universities/government establishments (Czech, Poland, Germany) who has studies the subject and read up on the relevant historical literature. Not easy I admit as they don't really want to talk to plonkers like us but it's really the only way as, otherwise, most of it is a just a lot of hearsay.
The Aischgrunder was a very famous historical race but no modern European fish farmer worth his salt would use it nowadays even if it was available. There are many, far better strains available nowadays. But local German communities remember the Aischgrunder carp with cultural fondness in a sort of similar way, I guess, to coal pit communities in this country. I've seen German carp farms claiming to produce Aiscgrunder carp but take it with a large pinch of salt and I think they are just playing on its famous name.
I'm also not sure about this 'Italian' race business. Italy was never famed for it carp farming and having an Italian race is a bit like having a German race or a Polish race. I'm still researching Italy but suspect Italian fish farmers imported some races/strains from other countries as their brood stock. We then get into the definition of a what constitutes a carp race and a strain? Any specific info from anyone about Italian carp farming would be very welcome in my research.
I've said this before somewhere. In the early 70's fish importation was very simple for anyone who fancied making some quick money, could hire a transit van, had a few header tanks and hired a couple of BOC oxygen cylinders. Health certification was a nonsense. A host of 'importers' sprang up – Ken Ryder, Rags Locke, Alan Southern, plus several others, who all brought in vast quantities of carp (and other fish) for many years before our authorities started tightening up. The fish came mainly from Holland, Belgium and France - often purchased from European fish 'distributors' and not direct from fish farms. These distributors got them from anywhere they could to supply the demand. So in the 70s we had a huge number of carp that came from a massive variety of European sources. I would guess that these carp constitute quite a large proportion of the carp present in this country today.
Whilst looking for some papers on South Africa imports I came across a paper on the Ropsha carp - ref: The Selection of Ropsha Carp by Zonova and Kirpichnikov (1968). It seems that Kirpichnikov was generalising when he said in one of his books that the brood stock they used to create the Ropsha was Galician and Amur wild carp. I think what Kirpichnikov meant was that the brood stock consisted of Amur wild carp and carp that had derived at one time from Galician carp – they are described in the paper as "Non-selected mixed carp".
In any event I can find no actual reference to any ever being imported into the UK. Why would anyone want to bring them from Russia?
South Africa, Ron. Found a bit but think I have more somewhere. Sept 1859 C.A. Fairbridge of Cape Town introduced six carp from England (but elsewhere referred to a company F.R.G. Bavaria as being the original source). 1955 Aischgrunder carp were imported for breeding and placed in Lowveld Fisheries Research Station at Marble Hall. The well-known Dor strain was also imported from Isreal in 1967. I'm sure I have read of other imports though.
Still working on the book. Had hoped to have it out for Xmas (good time to sell books of course) but it looks like this deadline has slipped.
Kevin
---------- Post added at 04:12 ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 ----------
Oh, nearly forgot - wild carp. No Brayton Pond carp are not TRUE wild carp (sorry Fred & Paul)...
There are no TRUE wild carp in Britain, almost certainly never was. There are feral forms that over time have reverted and appear very similar to the Danubian wild carp. But the true wild carp occurs only in the area of its natural distribution. Once man started transporting (from the Roman's onwards) they began the process of domesticating and hence changing it. Mitochondrial DNA analysis confirms all this. If we want to call these feral forms that more or less look like wild carp, wild carp, then okay... but how then do you describe TRUE wild carp?
Kevin
dezza
Well-known member
Ah! - Marble Hall, The Lowveld Fisheries Research Institute, been there on a couple of occasions when researching the history of carp in South Africa. But they were not very helpful if I remember right.
I think it must be appreciated that like Europe in WWII, South Africa was devastated by the Anglo/Boer War of 1899 - 1902. A lot of records were lost and most likely most didn't really care.
The only info I was able to glean was as I have said.
Describing true wild carp must virtually be impossible. Virtually all the carp we see today have evolved due to selective breeding by the hand of man.
I think it must be appreciated that like Europe in WWII, South Africa was devastated by the Anglo/Boer War of 1899 - 1902. A lot of records were lost and most likely most didn't really care.
The only info I was able to glean was as I have said.
Describing true wild carp must virtually be impossible. Virtually all the carp we see today have evolved due to selective breeding by the hand of man.
kevclifford
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There is an interesting post about wild carp here Ron:
http://www.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=41100&start=25
http://www.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=41100&start=25
Frothey
Senior Member
Top stuff Kevin.
"History..." and "Redmire Pool" are essential reads for all that have any interest in carp fishing - modern or not.
People will also come to realise that there's not much new in carp fishing, the fish just get bigger!
as an aside, didn't you suggest widening Redmire's gene pool back in the 70's?
"History..." and "Redmire Pool" are essential reads for all that have any interest in carp fishing - modern or not.
People will also come to realise that there's not much new in carp fishing, the fish just get bigger!
as an aside, didn't you suggest widening Redmire's gene pool back in the 70's?
dezza
Well-known member
The shot of the "wild carp" shows a fish that is identical in build to the long lean carp of the Vaal River. These fish by the way used to fight very very hard. They ran off at an incredible rate, probably something like the 40 feet per second that Walker claimed they could do.
I've been interested in the fighting qualities of certain species of fish for many years; as regards carp, from my own experience, river commons are by far the hardest scrappers. Mirrors can be very sluggish, especially in high temperatures with murky water. They like to see where they are going in water with a high O2 content I guess.
As regards Aischgrund carp, don't these fish have a high back and almost a hump just rear of the head - or do they? As far as I can remember I have never seen a SA carp with that body shape. I also hardly ever saw what could be classed as a leather carp.
What we did used to get were perfectly even fully scaled mirrors with huge scales and bright red anal, ventral and pectoral fins. These fish were quite pretty, yet I never caught one much above 15 lbs.
I've been interested in the fighting qualities of certain species of fish for many years; as regards carp, from my own experience, river commons are by far the hardest scrappers. Mirrors can be very sluggish, especially in high temperatures with murky water. They like to see where they are going in water with a high O2 content I guess.
As regards Aischgrund carp, don't these fish have a high back and almost a hump just rear of the head - or do they? As far as I can remember I have never seen a SA carp with that body shape. I also hardly ever saw what could be classed as a leather carp.
What we did used to get were perfectly even fully scaled mirrors with huge scales and bright red anal, ventral and pectoral fins. These fish were quite pretty, yet I never caught one much above 15 lbs.
Frothey
Senior Member
Mangroves "Scaley" was an Aischgrund wasn't she?
kevclifford
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Mangrove's Scaley doesn't look anything like an Aischgrunder carp. This is an image of an Aischgrunder carp in 1927. They had few scales and were famed for their high hump back - the early German fish breeders thought that fish with a high height to length ratio were better and the Aischgrunder had the best ratio of all the historic races. However, it was later found that this was due to a spine deformation probably caused by excessive inbreeding. Note the very short distance between end of dorsal and tail - the body length looks compressed, which it was due to the spine problem.
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Frothey
Senior Member
One of the other books got it wrong then.... lol.
Mind you, it's rare to see them as extreme as the above isn't it....
Mind you, it's rare to see them as extreme as the above isn't it....
Nobby C (ACA)
Well-known member
True, but after all " Jak chytit kapra" as any fule no.
mikeshaw1979
Well-known member
Pike will hybridize eg Esox masquinoney/lucius. The resulting tiger muskies are often very pretty.
Patricia Strutz with a Wisconsin example.
Now all that's required is for a misdirected Canada Goose with sticky eggs on its feet to land on a trout reservoir over here.
well if the old addage of you are what you eat is true then most big pike are american, grown fat on american trout.
dezza
Well-known member
But not in England mate!
One thing for sure, I've never seen a carp in SA of the shape of the Aischgrunder in your 1920s photo Kev, and the captures of SA carp I have made must be in the thousands.
I have also witnessed the capture of many carp by other anglers too.
One thing for sure, I've never seen a carp in SA of the shape of the Aischgrunder in your 1920s photo Kev, and the captures of SA carp I have made must be in the thousands.
I have also witnessed the capture of many carp by other anglers too.
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kevclifford
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I suspect that few if any of us has ever seen a genuine Aischgrunder carp. After WW2 the German fishery authorities unified all their historic breeds into one single race. According to Werner Steffens (1980) in his book Der Karpfen the Aischgrunder disappeared from carp farming in 1955. In the early part of the 1900s the old inbred historic breeds – Bohemian, Aischgrunder, Galizier (Galician), Lausitzer, Frankonian and a few others, were being 'hybridised' together on a regular basis as it was by then widely recognised that this produced faster growth. As I said there is a lot of heresay, folklore and downright nonsense perpetrated about carp races, with people looking at photos of fish and saying this one's from the Royale race, that one is a Frame carp, that one's a Galician and that one's a Dink. Honestly guys, it simply can't be done by looking at the fish.
A prize of £25 for anyone who can correctly identify these two strains.
A prize of £25 for anyone who can correctly identify these two strains.
dezza
Well-known member
The top one I have no idea.
I have caught lots of carp with the shape of the bottom one.
The largest carp I ever saw was a mirror that came out of a 25 acre lake in the Eastern Transvaal, now Mpumalanga. It was enormous. I caught a fish that was over 20 kg the previous weekend but this was much bigger, certainly 4 feet long.
It was killed.
I have caught lots of carp with the shape of the bottom one.
The largest carp I ever saw was a mirror that came out of a 25 acre lake in the Eastern Transvaal, now Mpumalanga. It was enormous. I caught a fish that was over 20 kg the previous weekend but this was much bigger, certainly 4 feet long.
It was killed.
kevclifford
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Ron,
Found a bit more on South Africa imports in a paper – Evaluation of the relative growth performance of three varieties
of the European common carp, Cyprinus carpio, in Transkei
J.F. PRINSLOO* AND HJ. SCHOONBEE**
*Departement of Zoology, University of Transkei, Private Bag X5092, Umtata, 5100 Transkei.
**Research Unit for Fish Biology, Rand Afrikaans University, P.O. Box 524. Johannesburg, 2000
"In 1958 and 1959 the Dinkelsbuhl Aischgrund variety of the
European common carp was introduced into the Transvaal (Lombard,
1961) to establish carp farming. In 1977 the Israeli Dor 70
variety of the common carp was imported into South Africa from
Israel and distributed to the Marble Hall Provincial Fisheries
Research Station, Transvaal, and the Tsolo College of Agriculture
in Transkei (Schoonbee et al., 1979; Schoonbce and Prinsloo,
1984)."
The reference to the "Dinklsbuhl Aischgrund" suggests to me that the fish were actually Dinks. The Dinkelsbuhl carp is another Baverian race (similarly to the Scharzenfelder race that was famous in Baveria after 1900 and the more famous Aischgrunder). It was quite localised, but of course because these breeds all came from Baveria they are related in their genetic past. The Dinks may have derived directly from the Aischgrunder (or may have a common cultivated ancestor). The Dinkelsbuhl breeds resemble the Aischgrunder very closely in several respects – they are very similar in their colouring although have more scales than the Aischgrunder.
A good book about the history of Dinks – if you can read German (or a lifetime's work using Google translate!)
Found a bit more on South Africa imports in a paper – Evaluation of the relative growth performance of three varieties
of the European common carp, Cyprinus carpio, in Transkei
J.F. PRINSLOO* AND HJ. SCHOONBEE**
*Departement of Zoology, University of Transkei, Private Bag X5092, Umtata, 5100 Transkei.
**Research Unit for Fish Biology, Rand Afrikaans University, P.O. Box 524. Johannesburg, 2000
"In 1958 and 1959 the Dinkelsbuhl Aischgrund variety of the
European common carp was introduced into the Transvaal (Lombard,
1961) to establish carp farming. In 1977 the Israeli Dor 70
variety of the common carp was imported into South Africa from
Israel and distributed to the Marble Hall Provincial Fisheries
Research Station, Transvaal, and the Tsolo College of Agriculture
in Transkei (Schoonbee et al., 1979; Schoonbce and Prinsloo,
1984)."
The reference to the "Dinklsbuhl Aischgrund" suggests to me that the fish were actually Dinks. The Dinkelsbuhl carp is another Baverian race (similarly to the Scharzenfelder race that was famous in Baveria after 1900 and the more famous Aischgrunder). It was quite localised, but of course because these breeds all came from Baveria they are related in their genetic past. The Dinks may have derived directly from the Aischgrunder (or may have a common cultivated ancestor). The Dinkelsbuhl breeds resemble the Aischgrunder very closely in several respects – they are very similar in their colouring although have more scales than the Aischgrunder.
A good book about the history of Dinks – if you can read German (or a lifetime's work using Google translate!)
Chris Frankish 2
Well-known member
Kev,
I've had a brief look through a few notes and so far haven't been able to find any reference relative to that date of "mid 1700s" so until I can find a definitive reference I've altered the date in my post to mid 1800s which I think will fit in with your information. I can't check unfortunately as my copy of your book is lent out just now.
This thing with the Aischgrundur variant is still confusing me. I looked back through some of the sites that I'd bookmarked and lots of the information portrays the "Aischgrundur Karpfen" being alive and well and fish farms in the region producing around 1,200 tons of product annually.
http://www.food-from-bavaria.de/de/reg_spez/einzelprodukt.php?an=108&display_lang=en
The photo on one site (the one I've inserted a link for) of a small fish in a fish tank does look to have the main characteristics of the fish in the old picture you put up but with that fierce humped back not fully developed.
Even though it makes perfect sense for WW2 to have caused major disruption to any commercial or private fish farming activities do you not think its possible that pure examples survived in one or more small ponds dotted around the area?
I spoke with the Estate Manager from the Yarborough Estate yesterday and he does still seem quite keen on the idea of finding documentation relative to historical stockings of carp into Croxby. I even offered to help him with the task. The fact that the estate has been in the same hands for a few generations (long before Overbeck's time) should be , fingers crossed, good news.
All down to when he has the time I'm afraid and as we're bang in the middle of harvest time I don't expect he'll get much of a chance at the moment.
I've had a brief look through a few notes and so far haven't been able to find any reference relative to that date of "mid 1700s" so until I can find a definitive reference I've altered the date in my post to mid 1800s which I think will fit in with your information. I can't check unfortunately as my copy of your book is lent out just now.
This thing with the Aischgrundur variant is still confusing me. I looked back through some of the sites that I'd bookmarked and lots of the information portrays the "Aischgrundur Karpfen" being alive and well and fish farms in the region producing around 1,200 tons of product annually.
http://www.food-from-bavaria.de/de/reg_spez/einzelprodukt.php?an=108&display_lang=en
The photo on one site (the one I've inserted a link for) of a small fish in a fish tank does look to have the main characteristics of the fish in the old picture you put up but with that fierce humped back not fully developed.
Even though it makes perfect sense for WW2 to have caused major disruption to any commercial or private fish farming activities do you not think its possible that pure examples survived in one or more small ponds dotted around the area?
I spoke with the Estate Manager from the Yarborough Estate yesterday and he does still seem quite keen on the idea of finding documentation relative to historical stockings of carp into Croxby. I even offered to help him with the task. The fact that the estate has been in the same hands for a few generations (long before Overbeck's time) should be , fingers crossed, good news.
All down to when he has the time I'm afraid and as we're bang in the middle of harvest time I don't expect he'll get much of a chance at the moment.
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