Work parties

[Peter Jacobs]

I have just payed £40 for a card that said there about 20 waters available for me but in fact they are not; at least not for the purpose that I paid for. I suppose I could sue the club under the trade description act but I would still rather pay and keep the waters,

You'd have a better chance under the Propery Misdescriptions Act of 1991 seeing as that the Trades Descriptions Act (1968) does not cover land or buildings . .

As for suggestions for a solution I'd think a mixture of WP's and the use of some contractors is a good idea.

The problems are, of course, hidden inside the H.S.E. Acts that can put the club in a difficult situation if there were to be an accodent resulting in the loss of a limb or worse still, a life . . . . .

Too many clubs are run on an amateur basis (albeit a well-meaning one) instead of a busoess model, as many clubs suffer from an advanced form of parsimony.

 

[no-one in particular]

Grass may be? Clearly you have never been near a river with a strimmer in the summer months. Nor have you ever run any sort of environmental business (landscape etc) voluntary or paid. Paid, would have to be a minimum of £9.50 ph as that Minimum Wage. That's £76 per day per worker for 8 hours. You did read what I wrote in post 30 did you? Just to remind you it was part of my job (paid) for over 20 year and well over 30 + years voluntary for one of those large park I mentioned. Weighed against your complete unrealistic and poor knowledge that make me an Expert against you!

Oh and Mike I think you missed the point a bit like the above. The figure for grass cutting was to illustrate what "contractors" charge for just cutting the grass, not how much they cut. The price would be the same for both as I have no doubts they work the price out on per squire metre cut.

You have never negotiated a contract with a landscape firm for this particular type of work nor do you know anyone who has so your no expert, mostly you have made assumptions and guesses as to the outcome of any negotiations, based on what you know historically with some related but not that related information and some not related at all. You worked for a park and you have some good environmental knowledge but that is not relevant, this is not about the environment
At 9.50 an hour that would work out at 79990.5 working hours over a 5 year period which it would never be quite like that of course but that's still a lot of man hours and a lot of work. The possibilities are there and you know that; except your the expert so you can not possibly wrong. If I could be bothered I would open up negotiations with a landscape firm myself but, what's the point, just prove your wrong and you might even be right but I don't think you are. I will write a letter to my club sometime and see if I can encourage them to at least investigate and find out what the reality is now in this present day and age, to see what is possible or not possible as the case may be, not based on your assumptions and conversations with a park man or even your work experiences, because I don't think it is enough to make you more an expert than me or anyone else; your arguments are not based on anything actual and therefore not persuasive enough for me. And you have shown how weak your arguments are by being insulting, the last resort of the lost argument, I never understand why people don't realize that or that they think no ones else sees it; one of life's eternal bafflements.

 

[no-one in particular]

You'd have a better chance under the Propery Misdescriptions Act of 1991 seeing as that the Trades Descriptions Act (1968) does not cover land or buildings . .

As for suggestions for a solution I'd think a mixture of WP's and the use of some contractors is a good idea.

The problems are, of course, hidden inside the H.S.E. Acts that can put the club in a difficult situation if there were to be an accodent resulting in the loss of a limb or worse still, a life . . . . .

Too many clubs are run on an amateur basis (albeit a well-meaning one) instead of a busoess model, as many clubs suffer from an advanced form of parsimony.

Nothing against work parties, I think they are great and even if a firm took on the major work imagine what contribution work parties could make around what they do. I can imagining a club fisheries becoming a fine thing. Of course I wouldn't sue a club, just making the point really. The two big questions remains, how much extra would members be prepared to pay and what amount of work could you get done. So far I have heard nothing and you wouldn't even get so much as a path strimmed.
I think I will carry on disagreeing with that until I find out the truth of the matter. I probably never will but I will have a go.

 

[The bad one]

You have never negotiated a contract with a landscape firm for this particular type of work nor do you know anyone who has so your no expert, mostly you have made assumptions and guesses as to the outcome of any negotiations, based on what you know historically with some related but not that related information and some not related at all. You worked for a park and you have some good environmental knowledge but that is not relevant, this is not about the environment
At 9.50 an hour that would work out at 79990.5 working hours over a 5 year period which it would never be quite like that of course but that's still a lot of man hours and a lot of work. The possibilities are there and you know that; except your the expert so you can not possibly wrong. If I could be bothered I would open up negotiations with a landscape firm myself but, what's the point, just prove your wrong and you might even be right but I don't think you are. I will write a letter to my club sometime and see if I can encourage them to at least investigate and find out what the reality is now in this present day and age, to see what is possible or not possible as the case may be, not based on your assumptions and conversations with a park man or even your work experiences, because I don't think it is enough to make you more an expert than me or anyone else; your arguments are not based on anything actual and therefore not persuasive enough for me. And you have shown how weak your arguments are by being insulting, the last resort of the lost argument, I never understand why people don't realize that or that they think no ones else sees it; one of life's eternal bafflements.

You haven't a clue what I've negotiated and with whom! But hey you keep think your 16 grand is the way to do it all........Dream on! BTW try Sectary, Chair both friends of PAAS the largest single club in Europe! But hey I know no one

 

[The bad one]

"This is not about the environment." You really are showing yourself up with that comment. Overgrown water unkept is it not part of the "environment then?" Do you know what the environment is and covers?

 

[Keith M]

Our club (which only has one water; an estate lake which we have leased for around 85 to 90 years) only has a maximum of 250 members at the landowners request; however we have always had a long waiting list of people waiting to get in.

To be a member requires you to do ‘two’ half days at a work party each year unless you are disabled or a junior member or pay a small sum towards the upkeep costs instead of doing a work party if you can’t or don’t want to.

In addition we also have a ‘Monday Morning club’ which is where every Monday morning members can turn up and meet in a small hut that we built to socialise, drink coffee and do odd organised jobs around the lake; like trim swims back and help with any larger jobs that are needed around the lake, this is all on a purely voluntary basis. Sometimes we get jobs done and other times (more times than not) we just sit around and socialise for a few hours.

We also have a few members who are in the building trade and who lend the club their services and various items of equipment and diggers whenever it is needed; and we pay for all personel and equipment at our work parties to be insured.

I’m sure that we are not the only club who does this kind of thing; we are not a big club; just a relatively small club which has a dedicated well organised membership who care for their fishing and also have a lovely remote and private estate lake to look after and fish.

Keith

 

[John Aston]

I'm a creaking 69 year old but the majority of waters I fish are wild and left to their own devices, and I'd say are all the better for it . The ones which are maintained are done so with the lightest of touches . When I read of 30 WPs a year I do wonder what it is that is actually done ? What are general expectations these days ? I get the case for easy access for older and disabled members , of course , but I wonder how high expectations are , do they reflect the simply gigantic amounts of kit some anglers think is necessary for even short session ?

 

[ian g]

Probably something in that . We usually cut paths and swims on the more popular lengths of the Severn . I was on one of them on Saturday evening and 3 younger guys turned up with trollies loaded with all sorts and then looked for somewhere to put there bivvies up rather than being able to get in the better swims . Each to their own.

 

[no-one in particular]

tt

You haven't a clue what I've negotiated and with whom! But hey you keep think your 16 grand is the way to do it all........Dream on! BTW try Sectary, Chair both friends of PAAS the largest single club in Europe! But hey I know no one

No I haven't because you have never told us, certainly nothing related to a contract with a landscape company and a club or you would have told us about it. Nor do you know anybody who has because you would have told us about that as well. Nothing that's relevant or up to date to prove that the your expert. You have no idea what could be negotiated in todays climate, costings, the club involved, the work that would be negotiated, the club waters, zilch buddy. You have no idea what could be achieved with 16k or 80k, none whatsoever. 4 laughing gnomes doesn't cut it, the desperation of the lost argument. nor does BTW sectary or who your friends with cut it, what are we all supposed to do, all fall over in wonderment at the breadth of it. Or the fact you worked in a park and know the park keeper. And you knowing a bit about the environment as well doesn't make you the expert, certainly I would expect a landscape firm or the club or both to have some expert on hand to advise about that aspect of it but, that wouldn't make them THE expert in negotiating a deal nor does it you, I knew you wouldn't understand that point.
You go and ask the experts, some one who works in a landscaping firm, their accountants or what your clubs think of it, get some proper idea and I will do the same and then we can have a conversation, then I am listening, then we have some solid base for a discussion, not all your theories and suppositions based on bollocks, no point while your in lost argument 4 laughing gnomes mode either, get over it. You dont know anymore than I do, your certainly no end of argument font of knowledge, not based on what you said so far. And yet you expect us all to bowl over at everything you say. Sorry buddy, it doesn't work like that, you have to come up with some sound good arguments for that, you don't get that by stating who you know or trying to take the piss.

 

[John Aston]

Calm down dears - or is it Strimmergate now ? Eek.

 

[jon atkinson]

As for suggestions for a solution I'd think a mixture of WP's and the use of some contractors is a good idea.

Very much what we do Peter - general maintainance, mowing, cutting back, peg (re)building and the like we can do ourselves but certain jobs need specialist attention, for example, there were a couple of sizeable trees that came down into a couple of our ponds during the storms earlier this year - we have a 'tame' tree surgeon who comes in and dismantles them whilst volunteers will help out retrieving the various branches and sections as he cuts them off.

30 might seem a lot of WPs to some, but it only averages about 2 per water per year in our case, and not all, albeit most, of the work is directly on & around the waters. The farmer whose lands most of our ponds are in appreciates a little help with fencing and such but is happy to drag large sections of tree trunk out of waters with his tractor if the occasion arises.

Quite agree about some people taking too much gear to the bank though... I'm usually one of them, although I haven't succumbed to getting a trolley yet!

 

[nottskev]

A good reason for having members, if they can tear themselves from their responsibilities for a couple of hours, do a bit of work, is that they are likely to understand so much better than contractors exactly what needs doing. I've not been on any wp's that involve tree-felling or JCB's; much more commonly they involve weighing up how to make small changes in the right places to keep swims open so we can get in , cast and land fish without losing tackle, fish or both. Trimming back just enough of the encroaching vegetation that threatens to close up swims is the idea. This is easily bungled by non-anglers who may think razing things to the ground is doing a good job and by some anglers who like to make a desert and call it a nice swim. I was fishing at the lake with the irritating no float rule the other day when the bloke who runs the fishing stopped behind me. You can fish down one side fairly well ok. On the other side you have to thread your rod through a small gap in a hawthorn and under an overhanging tree. He looked at what I was doing - I was fishing through the gap with my jacket on top of the undergrowth to keep the line from snagging in it - and proposed we "get rid of all this lot". But "this lot" is part of the attraction to fish and keeps it lightly fished. He was happy with my suggestion that we leave the gap as it is, cut back the overhang a couple of feet, take off the yard of long-dead branch sticking out past the overhanging trees to the other side and see if the snag on the bottom at that side - it's right where you'd like to place your bait - could be removed. At the same water an angler who volunteered to "improve" a jungle corner swim came on his own with forestry equipment and cleared the whole lot out. You won't catch anything much there now. Little and often "gardening" keeps swims as natural as possible and fishable. Periodic decimation can ruin swims for ages,.

A "wild" river is a nice idea but it really does depend on the nature of the banks. Two local examples: as the lower Derwent declined and anglers stopped going, the club, understandably perhaps, stopped the maintenance. I walked along it recently and swims - some famous chub and barbel swims included -had disappeared as if they never existed and the river was invisible through yards of shrubs, willow, alder and dense foliage. Good luck with wading down the middle to fish, with depths up to 15'. Another small Trent trib is unadopted by any club along its 20 + mile length. It runs for long distances through tunnels of willow and hawthorn and there can be long walks between spots where you can wave a rod at it.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I worked on club waters for over 30 years. At best there were a couple of us who knew exactly what needed doing and had the right tools and materials. Working parties of a dozen needed close supervision otherwise you'd find someone off piste hacking trees down or making a mess that took more work to rectify. Occasionally we used professional help - re-dredging a drain with a Hi-Mack - but it was expensive. We left chainsaws to our tame tree surgeon.

There is a tendency on stilwaters nowadays towards huge areas for fishing, a far cry from the 3' or 4' square areas of even 20 years ago.

 

[nottskev]

There is a tendency on stilwaters nowadays towards huge areas for fishing, a far cry from the 3' or 4' square areas of even 20 years ago.

True. I had great fishing for bream, roach and tench at an old claypit. The owner had everything except carp netted and sold and the swims - big enough to put a seatbox on - were replaced with wood-chipped areas big enough to site a caravan. Anything in the way was simply rmoved.
It's now an awesome runs water, according to posters on its fb page.

 

[The bad one]

tt

No I haven't because you have never told us, certainly nothing related to a contract with a landscape company and a club or you would have told us about it. Nor do you know anybody who has because you would have told us about that as well. Nothing that's relevant or up to date to prove that the your expert. You have no idea what could be negotiated in todays climate, costings, the club involved, the work that would be negotiated, the club waters, zilch buddy. You have no idea what could be achieved with 16k or 80k, none whatsoever. 4 laughing gnomes doesn't cut it, the desperation of the lost argument. nor does BTW sectary or who your friends with cut it, what are we all supposed to do, all fall over in wonderment at the breadth of it. Or the fact you worked in a park and know the park keeper. And you knowing a bit about the environment as well doesn't make you the expert, certainly I would expect a landscape firm or the club or both to have some expert on hand to advise about that aspect of it but, that wouldn't make them THE expert in negotiating a deal nor does it you, I knew you wouldn't understand that point.
You go and ask the experts, some one who works in a landscaping firm, their accountants or what your clubs think of it, get some proper idea and I will do the same and then we can have a conversation, then I am listening, then we have some solid base for a discussion, not all your theories and suppositions based on bollocks, no point while your in lost argument 4 laughing gnomes mode either, get over it. You dont know anymore than I do, your certainly no end of argument font of knowledge, not based on what you said so far. And yet you expect us all to bowl over at everything you say. Sorry buddy, it doesn't work like that, you have to come up with some sound good arguments for that, you don't get that by stating who you know or trying to take the piss.

You really are full of sh*** Try negotiating a contract for £300,000 for the refurbishment of two dells and creating 12 acres of Wildflower meadow with a company called Treeworks. It’s all on here if you go looking for it. Oh and I also wrote the management plan, wrote the grant application to Manchester Airport Environment Fund to get the money to pay for the contract. My job before I retired was an Environment/ Ecological Consultant and that meant negotiating contracts for my work and with contractors to carry out the work agreed for the client. And you have negotiated what? As I said good luck with your proposal and 16K when you put it to the club committee but I think it'll be from the committee.

 

[no-one in particular]

tt

You really are full of sh*** Try negotiating a contract for £300,000 for the refurbishment of two dells and creating 12 acres of Wildflower meadow with a company called Treeworks. It’s all on here if you go looking for it. Oh and I also wrote the management plan, wrote the grant application to Manchester Airport Environment Fund to get the money to pay for the contract. My job before I retired was an Environment/ Ecological Consultant and that meant negotiating contracts for my work and with contractors to carry out the work agreed for the client. And you have negotiated what? As I said good luck with your proposal and 16K when you put it to the club committee but I think it'll be from the committee.

I think your losing it mate. good luck.

 

[The bad one]

tt

I think your losing it mate. good luck.

Time to fess up I think don't you Mark!
The only one who's losing it is you ......stop posting on the site, comes back with a "Different" name! Being more obnoxious, belligerent than you were before. You know full well what I did before I retirement, you've been on this site in a Grant Shapps guise for long enough. You've even commented on some of the stuff I've wrote down the years.
Oh dear, oh dear credibility completely shot through and in tatters.

 

[no-one in particular]

Time to fess up I think don't you Mark!
The only one who's losing it is you ......stop posting on the site, comes back with a "Different" name! Being more obnoxious, belligerent than you were before. You know full well what I did before I retirement, you've been on this site in a Grant Shapps guise for long enough. You've even commented on some of the stuff I've wrote down the years.
Oh dear, oh dear credibility completely shot through and in tatters.

Nothing to fess up to, everyone knows why I changed my name, and it had nothing to do with trying to be clever or disguised in any way. I didn't like the new ownership of the site and the name change was more because the idea amused me as much as anything as well in light of the intrusive nature of the new owners. I also changed or deleted my profile at the same time. For the same reason I decided to take a break from the site as well as I was not doing much fishing anyway and I was fed up with the political content of the site which Peter Jacobs would confirm if he wishes so. I told him I would take a break and decide what I would do when the new river season started and I started fishing again. Sorry, mate, nothing to do with or anything like the reasons you have put.
As to being belligerent and obnoxious, I have never been rude to anyone on this site or obnoxious. I have never said they talk shit or live in a dream world or smack a load of laughing gnomes in their faces, never have and never intend to (last resort-lost argument!). I always stick to the argument and win or lose it on its own merit, I don't try to win an argument by insulting or belittling the person, if the argument stands it stands, and that's the way I shall carry on. It is obvious to me that has become impossible with you.
I posted on this thread because it is interesting to me and affects my fishing. we all belong to a club or help run one so the subject of working parties has some indirect or direct effect on most of us that fish. In my case, a small club that has waters that I would like to fish, working parties obviously to me me don't achieve that. Therefore I thought exploring other ways of doing the work was not only of interest to me but should be to everyone else. You told me it was impossible, your costings in your first thread was suppose to be the end of discussion but I said I don't believe your costings. For a start you have no idea of the work I have in mind and it certainly has no relation to anything you have posted or done, I am not after having acres of flower meadow restored or an airport made ecologically viable, this is the bit you seem to fail understand, it has no relation whatsoever and by dint nor any of your costings, if you backed it up with anything relevant but you havnt..
Anyway, I am not going to carry on with the argument with you, pointless, you have shown me your not interested in any grown up discussion.
I have emailed a specialist company yesterday with a vague idea of the work I wish to be done and the amount for a small fishing club and I shall look for more, I will be better informed that way than by you or all the nay sayers. I will contact some other specialist firms as well. This may take some time but I may publish the results when and if I get them on this thread if anyone is still interested. has an open mind and wishes to look into any ways their club might POSSIBLY improve their situation; or I might not bother, its not exactly been the most informative edifying passages of my life.. Good luck....anon

 

[The bad one]

Well that's more drivel from you Yaaaaaaaaaasaawn! Oh well until the next time you come out with what you call "Thinking?" and I can put you right with "facts" not speculation Thanx Tara!

 

[The bad one]

Oh bugger I forgot to add some Gnomes so here's a few for you