Eyed or spade?

[Regalis]

Can anybody tell me the benefits (if any) of using spade end Hooks over eyed?

When I was into general course fishing as a child the old guy (match fisherman) in the tackle shop I used would always try and convert me over to spade end hooks. He spent about an hour teaching me one day, how to tie them but I never bothered as it looked too much effort.

As I'm getting back into course fishing I would be willing to give them a try if they have any benefits over eyed.

Thanks.

 

[sam vimes]

The choice between eyed and spade generally comes down to age, angling background and angling style. I'm a regular user of spade end hooks. However, I wouldn't even try to convert anyone to their use. My reasons for using spades are a curious combination based on the fishing I do (lots of maggot fishing on rivers and more naturalistic stillwaters), my fishing background (mostly match and general coarse) and a totally unprovable impression that spade ends work better for my types of fishing. Those with a specimen/carp angling background and those that fish commies regularly are far less likely to have any interest in using a spade end hook.

 

[markcw]

It depends on venue plus I would say size of the hook.
If near snags a spade end hook has the chance of cutting the the line at the space.
I have lots of hooklengths that are both spade end and eyed but the eyed are knotless knot with either bait band, spike, quick stop in them.
I have done spade ends with bands etec at the end, just leave a longer tag than normal when tie one, then make it into a loop.
If you go down the spade end route for general coarse fishing, there are plenty of ready made hooklengths, my preference is guru, but I have a few by Drennan and middy.

 

[Regalis]

Thanks guys.

If their is no benefit in using spades over eyed (i.e bait presentation) I won't bother. I only expect to fish commercials with my course gear so hopefully won't run into a great number of snags.

The only encounter I have had with spades is making sabiki or mackerel rigs but they are a lot larger and obviously a lot less fiddly.

 

[markcw]

What are you targeting on commies Nat ,?
You don't have to fish heavy on them unless you are going on Holbar at Partridge Lakes.
If fishing maggots or bookable pellets I use spade end, I think presentation is better,
Anything that requires bait band etc it's an eyed hook regardless of size.

 

[Regalis]

What are you targeting on commies Nat ,?
You don't have to fish heavy on them unless you are going on Holbar at Partridge Lakes.
If fishing maggots or bookable pellets I use spade end, I think presentation is better,
Anything that requires bait band etc it's an eyed hook regardless of size.

Anything that comes along at the likes of lloyds. Not specifically targeting bigger carp.

 

[sam vimes]

If their is no benefit in using spades over eyed (i.e bait presentation) I won't bother.

Some, myself included, believe that there are benefits, particularly with regards to presentation when using smaller hooks and baits. The snag is that it's impossible to prove. All you can do is try spades for yourself (or not).

 

[Regalis]

Some, myself included, believe that there are benefits, particularly with regards to presentation when using smaller hooks and baits. The snag is that it's impossible to prove. All you can do is try spades for yourself (or not).

The reason I mentioned presentation is the water I fished when I was younger is a deep clear water pit. It's full of large roach and rudd that swarm maggots like piranhas.

When I told him he recommended spades. I thought it maybe something to do with how the bait falls. You could see the larger roach and rudd sit deeper and feed with caution.

It's a question I have always ment to ask as it stuck in my mind how he would always try to convert me and teach me how to tie them when I went into his shop.

Maybe he was just older and preferred spades...

 

[markcw]

Anything that comes along at the likes of lloyds. Not specifically targeting bigger carp.

You will be ok with whatever you use, I rarely go above a 16 on Lloyds mind you I use a pole on there 90% of the time,
I have had the big carp out on that sized hook , that's fishing Badger pool.
@wetthrough has fished it using Waggler tactics, he may be able to offer his insight on hooks for there .

 

[bullet]

Whether they make any difference to catch rates is debatable, but I prefer the way they hang on the line, and have a sneaking suspicion they may be better hookers than eyed when using small hooks/baits like maggots.
Oddly,I also enjoy tying them.

 

[seth49]

Usually spade ends for maggot, caster, and soft pellets. Anything else is usually fished on a hair with an eyed hook.

 

[Regalis]

Bait presentation wise I assumed it was something to do with the speed the Bait was falling through the water.

Eyed hooks I would guess are slightly heavier and may cause Bait like maggots or caster to sink faster than spades and a lot faster than free offerings??

I'm probably totally wrong! I was just guessing.

I may give them a go but it will definitely be pre tied! ?

 

[Keith M]

Bait presentation wise I assumed it was something to do with the speed the Bait was falling through the water.

Eyed hooks I would guess are slightly heavier and may cause Bait like maggots or caster to sink faster than spades and a lot faster than free offerings??

I'm probably totally wrong! I was just guessing.

I may give them a go but it will definitely be pre tied! ?

You’ve hit the nail on its head. Spades are a lot lighter than eyed hooks and can be a lot less obtrusive than the average eyed hook in the smaller sizes; even more so with fine wire hooks; plus when using casters for bait spade end hooks can be pushed inside a caster a lot easier than an eyed hook, plus they can retain the hook angle in the vertical position better than an eyed hook (unless it’s whipped).

However the line should come off in front of the hook shank else the spade can cut through the line when not tied correctly and the advantages of a spade end hook start to rapidly diminish in larger hooks of above a size 18 or 16 in my view.

Keith

 

[Regalis]

Thanks guys.

I may start out with some pre tied. Who knows, if I like them I could invest in one of those dodgy black hook tying contraptions!

 

[markcw]

Anything that comes along at the likes of lloyds. Not specifically targeting bigger carp.

You will be ok with whatever you use, I rarely go above a 16 on Lloyds mind you I use a pole on there 90% of the time,
I have had the big carp out on that sized hook , that's fishing Badger pool.
@wetthrough has fished it using Waggler tactics, he may be able to offer his insight on hooks for there .

Thanks guys.

I may start out with some pre tied. Who knows, if I like them I could invest in one of those dodgy black hook tying contraptions!

I have a couple of those dodgy black hook tying contraptions, If you do get the original Matchman , avoid the copies.
If you go for pre tied ,get guru, or kaizen and a set of plasters they are sharp.
The cheapest hook tying contraptions are on the end of your hands, Called fingers .

 

[steve2]

I gave up tying small spade ends the quality of ready tied is now better then I could tie them. Dearer to buy but I never used that many small under traditional size 16 hooks.

 

[Philip]

I was hammered last time this subject came up so I probably should leave it alone however as the forums a bit quiet ...

In my opinion the advantages of spades over eyes are overstated. The advantages given are generally along the lines of it gives better presentation as the knots are smaller and neater, the hook is lighter and the line comes off straight from the shank.

However, in the smaller sizes in which they are generally being used the actual difference between a spade or eye in say size 20 is microscopic. I find it very difficult to imagine say a small Perch or Roach being put off taking a maggot on a size 20 eye but gobbling it down without hesitation on a spade…imo that’s just not happening.

Take the point about the extra weight of an eyed hook making the bait fall unnaturally, again we are talking such small amounts that the weight & relative stiffness of the hook link line your using will probably make more difference to how your bait is falling than any minuscule difference in the weight of the hook.

As for the smaller neater knot on a spade leading to better presentation, apart from the fact you can attach an eyed hook with a spade end knot if you want, we are again talking about tiny amounts so I go back to the example of a small fish turning down the maggot on a size 20 attached to say 1lb line because the knot is microscopically larger, again I just can’t see it....

What about the line coming off the hook shank straighter with a spade? That’s another commonly quote « advantage » as it supposedly helps the bait to fall more naturally , well I would counter that if you look at a pouchful of maggots or casters sinking none of them are straight, they are all over the place at all angles so I can’t see that making any real difference either.

Another point people commonly quote is that spades are better for small delicate baits. I would agree…however I think that’s more a function of the fact its difficult to get eyed hooks in the really tiny fine wire sizes. I suspect (guessing) this is probably more down to it being easier & cheaper to manufacture a spade end in tiny fine wire than to try and create a neat eye. The result being that people don’t have the choice and have to pick spades for delicate baits. If more eyed hooks where available in those fine sizes and gauges of wire then I suspect we would see more people using them without any real impact on results for all the reasons already given.

Where I can just about see a possible advantage of a spade is using a bait such as a caster with say a size 18 or 16 hook…it would be marginally easier to bury the hook in a caster with a spade than an eye but again we are talking fractions here.

The underlying point is that I think there are a lot of imagined advantages of spades that have become almost universally accepted as being « right » without any real empirical evidence to prove it.

For that reason unless someone has some side by side tests done over an extended period and wants to share those results proving there is some meaningful advantage in using spades then imo everyone is just guessing & I cant see how the hype about spades -if I can put it like that- is really justifed.

 

[Regalis]

I was hammered last time this subject came up so I probably should leave it alone however as the forums a bit quiet ...

In my opinion the advantages of spades over eyes are overstated. The advantages given are generally along the lines of it gives better presentation as the knots are smaller and neater, the hook is lighter and the line comes off straight from the shank.

However, in the smaller sizes in which they are generally being used the actual difference between a spade or eye in say size 20 is microscopic. I find it very difficult to imagine say a small Perch or Roach being put off taking a maggot on a size 20 eye but gobbling it down without hesitation on a spade…imo that’s just not happening.

Take the point about the extra weight of an eyed hook making the bait fall unnaturally, again we are talking such small amounts that the weight & relative stiffness of the hook link line your using will probably make more difference to how your bait is falling than any minuscule difference in the weight of the hook.

As for the smaller neater knot on a spade leading to better presentation, apart from the fact you can attach an eyed hook with a spade end knot if you want, we are again talking about tiny amounts so I go back to the example of a small fish turning down the maggot on a size 20 attached to say 1lb line because the knot is microscopically larger, again I just can’t see it....

What about the line coming off the hook shank straighter with a spade? That’s another commonly quote « advantage » as it supposedly helps the bait to fall more naturally , well I would counter that if you look at a pouchful of maggots or casters sinking none of them are straight, they are all over the place at all angles so I can’t see that making any real difference either.

Another point people commonly quote is that spades are better for small delicate baits. I would agree…however I think that’s more a function of the fact its difficult to get eyed hooks in the really tiny fine wire sizes. I suspect (guessing) this is probably more down to it being easier & cheaper to manufacture a spade end in tiny fine wire than to try and create a neat eye. The result being that people don’t have the choice and have to pick spades for delicate baits. If more eyed hooks where available in those fine sizes and gauges of wire then I suspect we would see more people using them without any real impact on results.

Where I can just about see a possible advantage of a spade is using a bait such as a caster with say a size 18 or 16 hook…it would be marginally easier to bury the hook in a caster with a spade than an eye but again we are talking fractions here.

The underlying point is that I think there are a lot of imagined advantages of spaces that have become almost universally accepted as being « right » without any real empirical evidence to prove it.

For that reason unless someone has some side by side tests done over an extended period and wants to share those results proving there is some meaningful advantage in using spades then imo everyone is just guessing & I cant see how the hype about spades -if I can put it like that- is really justifed.

Rest assured, you will not be hammered here for giving an honest opinion.

I am grateful for any input as I have no experience using spade end Hooks. I have also never used pre tied hook lengths before (other than carp rigs when younger) so it will be interesting to try some pre tied spade end hooks and compare with my normal method of eyed hooks tied straight to mainline.

90% of my previous float fishing was marginal tench fishing against pads so it was 5-6" waggler on 6lb line shotted shirt button style with a hook on the mainline. (Just how I was taught).

I did however fish lighter on the pole and noticed small roach and rudd would swarm the maggot thrown in but the larger ones would sit deep and be cautious. I noticed this whilst fishing 6-10 ft out with water clarity of around 6ft deep.

I noticed my hook bait would fall a lot faster than the free offerings and would go untouched. I could see the larger roach and rudd sat on the edge of the pads but they wouldn't touch the bait. This is why I assumed it may be the weight of the hook that may be the problem as I was told spade were better but no explanation why.

In reality it could have been a number of things. Float, shot, line dia etc....

 

[peterjg]

Philip's post is totally spot-on! Any advantage in using spade end hooks over eyed is imagined. In fact if using the knotless knot with eyed hooks the knot is much stronger. The commonly used spade end tyers do a version of the Domhoff knot which is inherently poor. The best spade end knot is the Snell knot and that is weaker than the knotless knot in eyed hooks.

 

[markcw]

Rest assured, you will not be hammered here for giving an honest opinion.

I am grateful for any input as I have no experience using spade end Hooks. I have also never used pre tied hook lengths before (other than carp rigs when younger) so it will be interesting to try some pre tied spade end hooks and compare with my normal method of eyed hooks tied straight to mainline.

90% of my previous float fishing was marginal tench fishing against pads so it was 5-6" waggler on 6lb line shotted shirt button style with a hook on the mainline. (Just how I was taught).

I did however fish lighter on the pole and noticed small roach and rudd would swarm the maggot thrown in but the larger ones would sit deep and be cautious. I noticed this whilst fishing 6-10 ft out with water clarity of around 6ft deep.

I noticed my hook bait would fall a lot faster than the free offerings and would go untouched. I could see the larger roach and rudd sat on the edge of the pads but they wouldn't touch the bait. This is why I assumed it may be the weight of the hook that may be the problem as I was told spade were better but no explanation why.

In reality it could have been a number of things. Float, shot, line dia etc....

Nat, one way to counter baited hook falling quicker than free offerings is down to timing, If the water is clear you can judge this by looking, then adopt that approach to water with less clarity.
Throw free offerings in first ,then cast/lower baited hook in among them after say a couple of seconds,
Another way to fool wary fish is to hook the maggot/ caster through the middle, as has been stated not all maggots and caster fall in a straight line.
The free offerings and bait going in approach will work with corn, pellets etc.