Eyed or spade?

[markcw]

The reason mine are going in the hooklength boxes is because they are more compact than card strips held in place with an elastic band.
I have noticed that a couple of companies have brought out spools of hooklengths and storage system. Looks way to bulky.
The majority of my hooklengths are 4" and 6", if I need a different length I will knock one up on the bank.
I still have a few stackable spools that Daiwa did some years ago.
You put the hook in the spool then the next hook went in the hooklength loop and so on. The foam spools today seem to be a modern version of those.

 

[Philip]

Good to see the forum has woken up a bit

The point about line coming off the front or back of the hook is interesting. One of the reasons I do not tie any hooks with the line coming off the back is because I think it is more likely to result in a hook pull when you play a fish.

With the line coming off the back when you pull the hooks gape is being forced open (if I can put it like that) and your levering the point up and away from the hook hold.

When you tie it from the front the hook is more inclined to close its gape and the hook is « clawing » back in towards the hook hold.

Difficult to explain in type but you can see the effect if you try this test..tie an out-turned eyed/spade hook with the line coming off the back and an in-turned eyed/Spade hook with the line coming off the front (to exaggerate the effect) then stick them both in something and pull the line from different angles and watch how the hook reacts.

Not really true,my favourite spade end hook of all time is the Drennan Carbon Chub,this hook is not a fine wire hook,but a forged mid thickness of wire

I don’t understand your point here Alan or you misunderstood mine.

I still have a couple of packs of Carbon Chubs myself & agree they were a very good hook. I am not doubting you can get larger hooks in thicker gauges with spade ends…Maruta kinryu used to make them up to at least size two & there are some huge sea fishing hooks with Spades on them…that’s not in doubt.

It is the dearth of availability of small fine wire hooks with eyes I am highlighting. It means Match anglers dont have a choice in many patterns so they have to use spades so its Hobsons choice in a lot of cases.

Yes I agree with what Kev said that in some sizes/patterns there is a choice between the two but there is nothing like the same choice available with eyes in the smaller & finer hook patterns & the smaller you go the less choice there is.

So using the example of top match anglers use Spades to try and prove they are better is rather misleading. Would they still be using spades if ALL the hooks were available with small neat eyes ? ...I have my doubts...when we start getting down to size 20 and below, the actual difference between the exact same hook with an eye or a spade is so incredibly small its literally insignificant and I think the advantages are imagined.

 

[nottskev]

I'm finding the idea that match anglers - the same ones who at the high of the sport have the closest connection to brands and manufacturers, sponsorship from dealers etc - are obliged to use hooks that are inferior to ones you claim are better for lack of availability, less than convincing. I'm not convinced by the claim that they are better, or by the assertion that the market is baulking the very anglers who have most influence - often through consultancy, trials etc - on what is produced and available. Much simpler -Occam's Razor - to accept they are using what they prefer and what the market shows to be wanted. I'm not trying to be smart here - well, ok, but only in a mischievous way - but if we're on Planet Carp due to the market force of angler preference, why doesn't that explanation account for the preponderance of spade end hooks? The situation may change over time as demand changes, (so some of us can hope the carp stocking obsession will subside as other preferences come to the fore) but the only place I've read a wish for more eyed hooks in small sizes is in your post. Top match anglers have the platform and connections to call for them, if they want.

 

[markcw]

@Philip I still have some packets of Drennan fine wire pole hooks, Care has to taken when tying the line on, You have to get the tension right if using a hooktyer both to clamp the hook in position and also when wrap the line around to form the knot.They are easily bent out of shape if a little bit clumsy, Brilliant sharp hooks and keep their shape when a fish is hooked,
There is no way these could be available as an eyed pattern due to the gauge of the wire used.
I have not seen them for sale for a long time, so they are used sparingly when I go on the canal.

 

[steve2]

Isn't the main reason for the amount of spade end hooks on the market that the are cheaper and easier to produce than eyed hook in smaller sizes, not better than.

 

[Philip]

If I could "like" Steves post above another hundred times I would.

 

[108831]

My point really is that match anglers are often not using fine wire hooks,just the right balance of pattern,fine wire hooks are used to catch gudgeon,small roach and perch etc,the fish match anglers really want roach wise are say 3-12ozs ,fine wire would tend to open unless you fish a 3 or 4 elastic,making big weights difficult,most match anglers cover all their options with several patterns,sorry for rambling on...

 

[108831]

As for Steve's post,I dont believe that for a moment,the reasons are is that lots of match anglers have hundreds of hooks tied up ready,thus requiring loads tied on different hooklength strengths,patterns,the lot,so more hooks are sold to match anglers than to pleasure anglers,supply and demand ensures that hook manufactures reap profits to the max,whereas you and I tie a hook as I need it,to my desired line on the day,on a bad day that could equate to 15 hooks,on a good day,just one,Drennan and Guru dont make a lot out of me,like they would out of say Silvers(Alex)....

 

[peterjg]

If you tie similar sized hooks onto the ends of the same piece of line, one hook being a spade end and the other being an eyed and pull then nearly always the spade end knot breaks first!!!

 

[silvers]

As for Steve's post,I dont believe that for a moment,the reasons are is that lots of match anglers have hundreds of hooks tied up ready,thus requiring loads tied on different hooklength strengths,patterns,the lot,so more hooks are sold to match anglers than to pleasure anglers,supply and demand ensures that hook manufactures reap profits to the max,whereas you and I tie a hook as I need it,to my desired line on the day,on a bad day that could equate to 15 hooks,on a good day,just one,Drennan and Guru dont make a lot out of me,like they would out of say Silvers(Alex)....

Where to start Alan ...?

I actually don’t have ANY pre-tied hooklengths other than those that are attached to pole (and stick) rigs on winders ... much prefer to the tie on the bank as needed. In my box I carry at least 30 patterns and size combinations of hooks, so dread to think how much I’d have to prepare if you multiplied by line options!! I’m far too lazy for that!
I do have substantial stocks of discontinued hooks that I still like (Drennan super carbon maggot for one).
I also don’t own any guru kit and am notoriously tight ?

on a logical level I can completely agree with Philip’s analysis of relative merits, but a small spade end just hangs so much more nicely!!

i’m really surprised by Nottskev and Bracket stating that they habitually tie spades with the line coming off the back (outside of the hook bend). I’ve found in practice that, when a knot slips round in to this position, I start to bump fish and miss bites regularly ... which is immediately corrected by wiggling the line round to the preferred alignment.
Equally, lay the line across an open palm and try to impale your finger with the line coming off the back of the spade and just the weight of the hook (remember I’m using small, fine wire hooks) ... lots of missed hookups is my personal experience (Which tallies with my real-life experience.
Having said that, I know that Kev Ashurst’s book (world class match fishing) showed the hook tied off the back of the spade. I’d always assumed that it was an artists error!
Also remember picking up Paul Caswell‘s rod and finding his hook tied the “wrong” way. I must ask him when I next see him if this is habitual. Paul is very successful on the upper Warks Avon and catches a similar range of fish to me (just on maggot rather than caster).

 

[nottskev]

It always makes me smile when I hear/read people mangling the old saying and telling us "The proof is in the pudding" when they mean "The proof of the pudding is in the eating", and I think that's the key to this controversy. A former FM member, one I miss actually, used to insist that certain rod designs were inferior to the point of uselessness - regardless of what success other people had with them. There's a joke about academics' attachment to their ideas that goes:

My theory's better than yours!
I've got data.
Data shmata, I like my theory.

I'm just one of countless anglers who catch tons of fish on these allegedly inferior hooks (with what some claim to be a dodgy whipping knot). There are many sessions when I, and others equipped in the same way, catch a fish every chuck, small and bigger alike, without any significant number of missed bites, fish loss or any other problem. How can this mean the hooks are inferior, and how could an eyed hook produce better outcomes? Will I catch two at once? The proof is definitely in the pudding!

 

[nottskev]

I don't buy the explanation that cheapness is decisive. There can't be a customer base more willing to part with their money than the aspirant match angler - people (not all, I know) who'll fork out nearly £400 quid for a feeder rod, £ 80 for a bait tray, £120 for a net handle £1000 +for a box etc would surely be open to stumping up more for a whizzo eyed replacement for the current spade favourites...... if a convincing case for eyed over spade, backed by real-life demonstration, could be made. I could be wrong about about it being aspirant match anglers..... I suspect aspirant carp anglers probably get their credit cards out just as fast. And why "aspirant"? I've noticed at times that the real top guys have more of genius for fishing than for shopping and drooling over kit.

 

[Philip]

How can this mean the hooks are inferior

Well Kev, I’d say take a look at the world round you.

Most things made to attach to a line/ string/rope are made with a loop or a hole – do I need to give examples ? …...needles for sewing, leads for walking the dog, harnesses for bungy jumpers, xmas decorations to hang on your tree (topical!?) - you get my drift I am sure.

I have yet to come across any that offer you a flattended open ended spade to try and attach your rope or string to.

Why do you think that is ?

....I’d wager its because the logic of trying to attach a line to an open ended paddle is fundamentally flawed & naff at its base level. The world has moved on & invented the hole ! …time for modern match men to start using it I’d say

**Attention ! Humour was used in this post in case anyone has a bypass in that area**

 

[nottskev]

Well Kev, I’d say take a look at the world round you.

Most things made to attach to a line/ string/rope are made with a loop or a hole – do I need to give examples ? …...needles for sewing, attachment points on Kites, leads for walking the dog, Xmas decorations to hang on your tree (topical!?) - you get my drift I am sure.

I have yet to come across any that offer you a flattended open ended spade shape to try and attach your rope or string to.

Why do you think that is ?

....I’d wager its because the logic of trying to attach a line to an open ended paddle is fundamentally flawed & naff at its base level. The world has moved on & invented the hole ! …time for modern match men to start using it I’d say

**Attention ! Humour was used in this post for anyone with a bypass in that area**

lol.
Your examples merely show that tying anything beyond simple through-a-hole knots is beyond most people, but the advantage - for fishing with finesse, not hanging things on a tree - of the flattened end is enough to motivate anglers to master more sophisticated knots.

I read that the universally admired and respected river match angler John Dean would cut the spade on hooks in half, stone the remainder, stone the point, squash the barb, tie them on a home-made machine and dope the whipping. Think how much more he might have won had he wised up to eyed hooks!

 

[rob48]

Could any of the eyed-hook advocates recommend a pattern that can be buried in casters without ragging the shell?

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Like most aglners in my age group I guess we all started out using eyed hooks as they were most generally available. We changed over to spades when they became more available.

I tie mine with the line from the front of the hook because, well, I've always done it that way.

The only time I use eyed hooks these days is when using bread or cheese paste for chub and typically I bury the hook in the bait.

 

[108831]

I have caught on maggot and caster on eyed hooks on the float,but my experiences have showed that spade ends work better,for me at least,as for tying them off the front or the back,that is a matter of personal choice,all I can say I certainly wont tie them from the back ?,keep catching guys...

 

[markcw]

Could any of the eyed-hook advocates recommend a pattern that can be buried in casters without ragging the shell?

Or double caster, where the first one goes up the shank so the second one can be hooked

 

[markcw]

Reading @nottskev post #52 and the price of tackle he mentions, £1000 for a seatbox that probably won't last 20 years, £400 for a rod.£120 for landing net handle, I must admit I paid that for mine.
I bought an AS1 box when they first came out, cost around £300 at today's price that's around £1000 and these boxes are still going strong.Same with Boss boxes.
I paid £300 for a Shimano pole mid 80's only got one topkit with it, today's price around £700, and it was only 12.5 metre I have still seen a couple of these pole being used, they are not as good as Kev's Diaflash poles that cost more.
So will today's rods etc still be around in 30 years, I reckon that Octbox will last they way they are engineered.
I have hooks from 10 years ago I have never used, and they are spade end.

 

[nottskev]

So will today's rods etc still be around in 30 years, I reckon that Octbox will last they way they are engineered.

Yes, they'll be here, sticking out of the scorched remains of our civilisation, like the pyramids.
Come to that, rolling them on logs is probably a good way to move them, too.
I speak as someone who quite likes them, but oh the weight and the sharp corners!