For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter

[Steve Pope]

We note with interest the response to our petition from the Angling Trust .

The aforementioned Specialist Angling Group meet just twice a year, hardly a recipe for action is it?

The Barbel Society has always fought its own corner and hopefully will continue to do so.

We are pleased the Trust understands and shares our concerns but we would make the very strong point that those concerns are also shared with the thousands who have already signed the petition.

We are also pleased to note and acknowledge the good work being done by the Trust - however the increase in otter predation is continuing to undermine that good work.

Our petition is a wake up call to perhaps work a little harder and recognise just how serious the problems are.

However we are extremely disappointed you cannot find it within yourselves to support a petition whose key purpose is to mobilise support from the angling fraternity - the very people you represent.

The Trust really should show support to these people, the every day angler, those anglers we have given the opportunity to express their very real concerns, the very people you want and need as members.

You should not, indeed must not let them down.

Should the Trust decide to support us and all those signatories, we would welcome that support.

Steve Pope, Barbel Society Chairman

 

[108831]

I for one wouldn't want otters to be absent,but I also would like our river systems to flourish and I don't think that will recur in my lifetime, our waters are being attacked from many different angles,with nobody actually doing an awful lot to stop it.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

I for one wouldn't want otters to be absent,but I also would like our river systems to flourish and I don't think that will recur in my lifetime, our waters are being attacked from many different angles,with nobody actually doing an awful lot to stop it.

Alan, on the contrary there are at least 3 different bodies who are attempting to do something about the otter (and other) angling problems, (to differing degrees) namely: The Angling Trust; The Predation Action Group and the Barbel Society.

What we, as anglers need and deserve, is for all three to work in conjunction with each other rather than individually.

To my mind then as the government accepted "face and body" of angling the Angling Trust should take the lead with essential support from the PAG and the BS . . . . .

See: The Predation Action Group : Safeguarding Fisheries From Predation

 

[nottskev]

I've done a fair bit of reading since yesterday, and have arrived at the view that the petition is misguided, if understandably so, and, from things posted just now, a little disingenuous.

That said, maybe there's some point in recognising why anglers, aside from those with a special interest in big barbel on specific rivers or with expensively stocked carp at risk, might be tempted to voice opposition to the spread of otters even if it's just a kind of protest vote.

The vision of otters restored to their position in harmony with the wider systems of thriving, healthy rivers is the ideal. If your river is bountiful in fish and wildlife , and the presence of otters signal its overall health, great.

But it's not surprising that anglers who have endured chronic low-grade fishing on depleted waters caused by, amongst other things, avian predation, might not welcome the arrival of further predators on the block. When one of your local rivers is, as widely testified, getting emptier all the time, it takes the shine off the conservation triumph of seeing a top predator re-establishing itself.

I've read the Angling Trust/ EA joint releases, articles on analysis of otters' diet remains and a fair few other things, and I understand the stance of respecting the protected status of otters whilst working to ensure that high quality rivers can support fish and fish-eaters, so we all win.

But we're a long way from that, and whilst I can be convinced that petitioning against otters is a negative and fruitless gesture, I'd like to hear what pro-fishing measures, specifically and practically, we can support.

The otter, we are told, is successfully re-establishing itself on our rivers and enjoys protection and powerful support. I'm open to hearing how anglers might harness some similar protection and support for fish, so they can re-establish themselves in some once-great fisheries where they are now so thin on the ground and where angling is going backwards not forwards.

I've just replied to a post about the Lower Derwent's troubles on another thread. It gives a glimpse of the frustrations that may colour perception of issues involving rivers, fish and predators.

 

[108831]

Alan, on the contrary there are at least 3 different bodies who are attempting to do something about the otter (and other) angling problems, (to differing degrees) namely: The Angling Trust; The Predation Action Group and the Barbel Society.

What we, as anglers need and deserve, is for all three to work in conjunction with each other rather than individually.

To my mind then as the government accepted "face and body" of angling the Angling Trust should take the lead with essential support from the PAG and the BS . . . . .

See: The Predation Action Group : Safeguarding Fisheries From Predation

Peter, trying and doing are two very different words,if any or all get any successes I will be pleasantly surprised, until then I won't sit here with bated breath,sadly....

 

[thecrow]

Alan, on the contrary there are at least 3 different bodies who are attempting to do something about the otter (and other) angling problems, (to differing degrees) namely: The Angling Trust; The Predation Action Group and the Barbel Society.

What we, as anglers need and deserve, is for all three to work in conjunction with each other rather than individually.

To my mind then as the government accepted "face and body" of angling the Angling Trust should take the lead with essential support from the PAG and the BS . . . . .

See: The Predation Action Group : Safeguarding Fisheries From Predation

The trust have had ample time to climb down off the fence on this issue, they have not so far done that.

The Predation Action Group are for lethal control, not going to happen imo.

The Barbel Society (I am not a member) have taken imo a pro active approach by starting this petition for none lethal means of control.

So out of the 3 mentioned only one is trying to gather support to do something about the problems caused by otters while the trust pontificate and the PAG have their heads in the clouds.

How on earth can all 3 work together?

 

[dicky123]

Jim.

My thoughts and words exactly, and you could not have put the other side better in my view.

I do feel sorry however for the chaps who have stocked lakes with carp, when the otter finds them. But these lakes are false in the fish they hold, and not natural it's not the otters fault someone makes a fish supermarket in their territory.

In the right places, Otters have a home in my heart and makes my day to see one. Sadly that's a rare occurrence in my world and where I fish. It's us encroaching on their world when we fish.

 

[108831]

****y,no one has fished venues in my lifetime with the otter population as it is today,certain parts of the country with a permanent population of sorts are out there,but for most they just weren't there so all I/we know is how fish stocks were,the Gt.Ouse above Bedford was full of chub,roach,dace etc,with decent levels of barbel,perch and pike,today levels are but a fraction of those heady days,it isn't just barbel(even though I love them),its the other species too,blaming just otters is ridiculous,but they are a part of several serious issues that are destroying the river,all must have their effects lessened if any sort of recovery is to happen.

 

[thecrow]

I do feel sorry however for the chaps who have stocked lakes with carp, when the otter finds them. But these lakes are false in the fish they hold, and not natural it's not the otters fault someone makes a fish supermarket in their territory.

How long does a fishery have to have had fish that were originally stocked to not be a fish supermarket? is Redmire false, what about Billing?

Commercials are imo the lifeblood of angling, its where lots of youngsters come into angling and where a lot of less able anglers fish that otherwise wouldn't, should they be sacrificed on the alter of the otter?

This petition is about so much more than carp or barbel, it is imo (again) about trying to ensure that following generations of anglers get the pleasure I have had from fishing rivers with something approaching a balance of predator and prey because if something isn't done I cant see that happening.

 

[Philip]

I would have thought a petition to stop FURTHER introductions of Otters would make more sense. ...+ it avoids tip toeing round minefield subjects such as trapping/snaring/or knocking Mr Furry face on the bonce.

Philip there hasn't been any significant releases since 2000.

I take your point Phil & you would know the stats allot better than me. The point however is that looking at what you said in earlier posts it appears the fact is there have never been ANY significant releases even before 2000, I think you mentioned only 138 animals released and then @10-15 per year ongoing of orphaned or rehabilitated animals & so on , interesting info so thanks for sharing that & basically the point being the number is peanuts however its clearly causing allot of noise to be made as a result.

The way I see it is that anything that attempts to present a case for control of the current Otter population even in the most humane ways is simply going to fall on deaf ears, its just never going to wash or happen.

To my mind taking a smaller first step by attempting to convince people to control FURTHER introductions first may be a better way to at least start the ball rolling. Even if it’s a step as small as agreeing that the 10-15 orphaned or rehabilitated animals being released each year are into [for example] designated areas agreed in with angling bodies amongst others. Or at the very least ensure angling bodies such as the AT (or others) are engaged prior to any additional animals being released.

Will it make a big difference ?

Maybe not but it would be an easier first step and perhaps more palatable to the powers that be and the general public than trying to make the jump to convince anyone to do something about the animals already out there.

Baby steps. Walk before we can run.

 

[The bad one]

& basically the point being the number is peanuts however its clearly causing allot of noise to be made as a result.

Indeed it did and I've said publicly (on here, on local radio and in talks I've done) that it was whipped up into a myth of thousands being breed and released by people who do and should know better to fit their narrative and agenda they hold. And to be honest, it's still being peddle.

They know full well because I've supplied many with the evidential figures and evidence, fully reference I may add, unlike the *hite they've peddled. Sadly they are blind and deafened by putting their fingers in their ears and chanting la, la, la, la,....................... Preferring instead to blame otters for all the ills of all fisheries rather than look for the real reasons (which are many and complex) why a particular river only has nothing but big old fish in it.
Far far easier to blame something they can see (even though many who are shouting about it, have never seen an otter in the wild) for all the ills, than tax their brains on science or chemistry.......Hell fire that's Voodoo!!

Here and in closing this comment I'll use a quote from a mate who is no tree huger, as he shoots but does understand the ecology of such matters

If we keep demanding fisheries that resemble a McDonald's to otters they will frequent them.
Shut the McDonald's and the otters will react naturally.
The more we go away from natural balanced fisheries the more nature with react accordingly.
All the imbalance in the natural world is man made and we just keep making more.
Nature will always win.

 

[108831]

Phil,here down south most of our river fisheries are totally unbalanced,fish numbers are poor,of most sizes,this of course varies year on year for smaller fish,its the fish of moderate sizes that seem scarcer,you know,the 1-1.5lb chub,the 10-14oz roach,perch 8ozs-1lb,in all my years fishing the river(and its quite a few now)I've never known all these species to be 'missing' at the same time in these sizes,cycles usually mean some species flourish at different times,thus filling a niche,but not seemingly these days.

 

[steve2]

Unfortunately for angling the one thing that thread as shown is just how divided we are when it comes to what some see and don’t see as important issues facing angling. It’s not just with the issue of otters or other predators but the water environment in general.
It’s no wonder that other animal, bird and nature groups find us an easy target?

On the subject of what is a “false” Fishery most are. Every club water I fish is managed and was stocked in some way.
Even Redmire once drained; re-landscaped, and restocked will just be another “false” fishery.

 

[thecrow]

Even Redmire once drained; re-landscaped, and restocked will just be another “false” fishery.

It has been for many years, ever since leney strain of carp were stocked.

 

[no-one in particular]

Interesting thread this, I wasn't going to say anything but here are just some thoughts in passing.
I gave up coarse fishing 2 years ago but I fished 2 rivers and a small stream consistently prior to that for 15 years. I never saw an otter in all that time, in fact i have only ever seen them once in my life, on the Somerset levels about 10 years ago. I know they are nocturnal but I never got the sense they are numerous. However, that does not mean I think they are not a problem, just a personal observation.
I get they must see commercial fisheries and maybe well stocked club lakes as a Mc Donald, is not a natural situation and should an unnatural situation not be unexpected.
Just been reading how common seals are becoming more numerous on rivers, the article was about the Thames mainly. I don't know how far they will travel up rivers but would they drive away otters as competition for food. Will getting rid of riverine otters only encourage them. Just a thought but can we really control nature and does trying to solve one problem just creates another. these seals are probably just looking for food because they are struggling to find much in the sea.
Whenever I see programs of otters in Scotland they are usually coastal, rich kelp beds for them to find shell fish etc. never hear of otters around our coastal waters though. Nothing much there for them, same as cormorants. If they had some good marine protected coastal zones too go to maybe they would be tempted away from rivers to some extent, same as cormorants.
Sorting out the sea problem may help to sort out some fresh water problems, otters, seals , cormorants and elver survival rates among them.
I am dead against all this introduction of species even re-introductions unless some very good reasons for it, no matter how small, these people should be controlled.
We always seem to be trying to get back to some imagined perfect time, when the climate was perfect, when cormorants and otters etc stayed were we wanted them. The world constantly changes, shouldn't we just sometimes adapt.
Just random thoughts ....

 

[rayner]

Unfortunately for angling the one thing that thread as shown is just how divided we are when it comes to what some see and don’t see as important issues facing angling. It’s not just with the issue of otters or other predators but the water environment in general.
It’s no wonder that other animal, bird and nature groups find us an easy target?

We wouldn't be a so called easy target if we didn't try to ban wildlife that eat course fish.
We are only a target because we stick our heads above the parapet with ridiculous demands.
Otters in the wild is not an important issue to me. Pollution and flooding both are important, these are things that everyone should agree.
Left alone Otters will self regulate their numbers with natural selection. Getting anglers put on the naughty step as it were will not show us in a good light.
Especially if the ones calling for action are of limited numbers.

 

[nottskev]

Regarding wildlife that eats coarse fish, I'm always happy to see herons and grebes on the water; they seem to be examples of predator/prey in sustainable balance, and add to the interest and beauty.

I suppose the "holistic" take on the place of the otter - that a sustainable self-regulation will establish over time - is the right one. Painful as that may seem to anglers who are already weary of seeing fish stocks depleted by avian predation. I was an ornithologist before I was an angler, and I love to see wildlife. Badgers from the sett next door come and eat left over catfood outside the door on a daily/nightly basis. But I must admit, when I saw the first otter swim past me at Clifton Bridge this summer I didn't rejoice, as I seem to have had a great talent for living in places where the river fishing is always going into, in, or struggling to get out of some kind of crisis, and I saw it, rightly or not, as something else come to eat the fish.

With cormorants, and the protection that surrounds them, I wonder whether the political will to reduce their numbers might have been more forthcoming if, instead of damaging fish stocks precious to coarse anglers, they had the habit of digging up the greens on golf courses. Would that have influenced where the line is drawn between a species deserving high levels of protection and an invasive pest?

 

[steve2]

I agree that one thing you will never see in this country is the control by lethal or non-lethal methods animal or birds of any species. Unless of course it’s rats or mice or mink not seen by most as cuddly they can therefore be shot, poisoned or trapped.

The animal bird welfare lobby is too strong and will never listen to anglers or hunters concerns, which is why the illegal shooting of cormorants still goes on.

 

[108831]

They shoot deer on the premise of overpopulation and the damage to trees,forests etc,they actually charge people to hunt them in Scotland,we shoot pigeons by the thousands,we should not be looking to slaughter otters though.One serious issue I have,why shouldn't anglers fight for the protection of fish,why should several species of fish be threatened by one mammal,an otter,another point I will argue on Rayner(sorry I don't know your name),otters will never even out while humans rescue Kitts and feed them on for release,that is not natures way,human nature,maybe....

We,as anglers will never achieve anything if we kiss the ring of all wildlife enthusiasts, we need to understand, we stick hooks in fish,then have them gasping before their return,but we are some of the very few people who actually care whether fish live or die...

 

[thecrow]

otters will never even out while humans rescue Kitts and feed them on for release,that is not natures way,human nature,maybe....

Spot on Alan injured wild animals that would die without human interference should be allowed to die, its not cruel as those that interfere would claim cruelty is an emotion that doesn't exist in the animal world it is an emotion purely affecting humans, its one of natures controls.