For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter

[jasonbean1]

Otter's culling in Austria - Eurogroup for Animals

Wonder if it ever happened?

 

[The bad one]

Phil,here down south most of our river fisheries are totally unbalanced,fish numbers are poor,of most sizes,this of course varies year on year for smaller fish,its the fish of moderate sizes that seem scarcer,you know,the 1-1.5lb chub,the 10-14oz roach,perch 8ozs-1lb,in all my years fishing the river(and its quite a few now)I've never known all these species to be 'missing' at the same time in these sizes,cycles usually mean some species flourish at different times,thus filling a niche,but not seemingly these days.

Alan (Whitty) regarding the above and a comment you made earlier about above Bedford on the Gt. Ouse, an area I’ve never fished but have visited the wider area a couple of times and know it’s geography, morphology and land management/usage. From an angling perspective I know it better lower down in the Fens.
That said, there is a lot of information out there about the problems of the area environmentally and ecologically of the land use aspect. There’s also information relating to the river and its catchment problems including fish assemblages as well.

A virtual Google Earth (where would we be these days without it?) walking tour of the upper river above Bedford shows how rural and arable it is. That alone should ring alarm bells to anyone who has ever watched or read about the problems such areas suffer from, such as soil loss, constant and over use of pesticides (generic term for all cides). All of which end up ultimately in the river at some point. Add to that the waste treated and untreated water from a catchement population of around 300,000 entering the river, it's a toxic brew to say the least and fish are supposed to swim about in it and thrive?

Then there's the predation aspect before the otter chips in its bit, of Signal Crays eating the eggs after any spawning has happened, gooseander and cormorant both taking different sized pray. Siltation of the spawning beds from the soil loss of the prairie type environment.
All in all adding up to a very sick river indeed. Which in my view has and is manifesting itself in what you are seeing today, a river in environmental and ecological crisis.

Culling otters will not solve the problem because even with them removed, the river and many more up and down the country, are not and will not be sustainable unless and until the fundamental and underlining problems are addressed and SOLVED.

Until that hard choice is taken by the powers that be, the EA will keep sticking plasters on the problem and stocking fish into that failing environment to appease the clamour for something to be done. The reality is it is just kicking the can down the road for the next decade.
Where no doubt the next barbel Messiah will come along offering simplistic solutions to complex problems beyond his comprehension.

I will argue on Rayner(sorry I don't know your name),otters will never even out while humans rescue Kitts and feed them on for release,that is not natures way,human nature,maybe....

Alan as I've already posted above the numbers are so few 10-15 per year release nationally, that they are insignificant to make any impact in the grand scheme of things.

As to it being not nature's way – it's also not nature's way that man placed them in the rehab ward in the first place.*
Cubs being orphaned by the mother being killed in road accidents with cars. 70% of the 1000 + otters autopsied by the Vincent Wildlife Trust and Exeter Uni were found to have died via road accidents*
Death of the mother through accumulated toxins in their food chain. Toxins put there by man.
Mothers getting drown by traps put there by man. Liver fluke contracted from dogs kept as pets by man.

 

[jasonbean1]

Comments

If you signed here's your self appointed leader(s)

Remember your ever with um or against um mg:

 

[lutra]

No way would I sign that narrow minded rubbish.

If anyone can find a petitioning to outlaw single minded action groups, then count me in.

 

[thecrow]

I cant help but feel that there is quite a bit of historical bad feeling creeping into posts on this thread against individuals and organisations.


Sign don't sign all up to the individual what is interesting is that over 7500 have signed already yet the angling trust who are supposed to support anglers have distanced themselves from the petition totally ignoring those anglers and one has to ask oneself why and the conclusion I come to is as usual money from the EA.

Anyone know how many individual members the trust has excluding club membership and those forced to join if they want to fish trust run matches and whether the figures are rising or falling.

 

[The bad one]

Sign don't sign all up to the individual what is interesting is that over 7500 have signed already yet the angling trust who are supposed to support anglers have distanced themselves from the petition totally ignoring those anglers and one has to ask oneself why and the conclusion I come to is as usual money from the EA.

I cant help but feel that there is quite a bit of historical bad feeling creeping into posts on this thread against individuals and organisations.

Is that kettle and pot black?

 

[rayner]

I will argue on Rayner(sorry I don't know your name),otters will never even out while humans rescue Kitts and feed them on for release,that is not natures way,human nature,maybe....

We,as anglers will never achieve anything if we kiss the ring of all wildlife enthusiasts, we need to understand, we stick hooks in fish,then have them gasping before their return,but we are some of the very few people who actually care whether fish live or die...

I don't disagree with anything you say whitty.
The point you make regarding rescues can not be the fault of Otters. The fact that they are rescued when ever possible is another nail in the coffin lid of this petition. Though I don't agree with your kissing rings comment.
Yes we are somewhat the guardians' of fish. It should be obvious that fish are not just there for our benefit.
Unless of course they are stocked in waters such as commercials where they are definitely there for our sole benefit, or indeed the owners.
As such can be protected by owners, if they are caught in the act of killing stocked fish, not just because they are there.

 

[Molehill]

To quote Henry Mencken:

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.

Sort of sums it all up for me

 

[nottskev]

How to avoid anglers, given the chronic frustrations endured by those looking to rivers for their sport, being tempted to back single-interest groups holding out simple solutions to complex problems?

Point out paths to solutions which are adequate to the problems, convincing and offer realistic hopes of success.

I don't intend this sarcastically, but literally: what, in the view of those most eloquent in claiming a broader grasp of the complex picture and in seeking to educate anglers that otters are not part of the problem, is/are the way(s) forward, and in what should anglers invest their support, energies and trust?

Accepting that demonising otters won't help, what, in practical terms, will?

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Comments

If you signed here's your self appointed leader(s)

Remember your ever with um or against um mg:

I invested the 30 minutes or so to watch this and really have to say that it has not changed my position one iota.

The petition lacks clarity and is too non-specific to attract the larger support.

Steve mentions that they decided to float "the idea" and then see about the details afterwards . . . . . when those details are made public then I will review them and decide if I wish to support this, or not.

I also want to see exactly what the Angling Trust and the PAG have to say, and hopefully let's see a totally united front . . . . . [later comment removed . . . . maybe other who have quoted this will edit and remove as well]

 

[108831]

Phil,can you tell me what otters are eating on the Ribble?

 

[108831]

Don't want them killed,but if otters carried bovine TB they'd be dead by now...

 

[thecrow]

Is that kettle and pot black?

Nope don't know anyone that has anything to do with this petition.

 

[thecrow]

I also want to see exactly what the Angling Trust and the PAG have to say, and hopefully let's see a totally united front; at the moment it has the look of AWM about it I'm afraid.

The trust will say whatever they think the EA want to hear.

What does AWM mean ? i hope its not what I believe it to be.

 

[thecrow]

Remember your ever with um or against um

Well as I have signed I guess I am "ever with um" they are as far as I can see the only ones attempting to do something about the problem.

The angling trust also self elected are doing nothing they never will while their finances are tied to the EA who were involved in the otter releases.

 

[thecrow]

I also want to see exactly what the Angling Trust and the PAG have to say

Good luck with waiting to see what the trust say Peter, as for the PAG I think your wait will be shorter.

 

[Steve Pope]

Peter ,

You know I have a lot of respect for you but you cannot use your position on here to tar me and everyone who has signed the petition with the AWM label.

I am particularly offended as a father of three daughters who hold down high level jobs and I am a staunch supporter of women’s rights.

Please moderate your own post.

Thank you.

 

[mikench]

What does AWM mean ? Acronyms are useless unless they are within the common vernacular or are explained!

I also feel this thread has lost its way!

 

[binka]

What does AWM mean ?

I wondered about that too

I did a quick google but nothing related came up, unless 'Arctic Warfare Magnum (Counterstrike weapon)' has anything to do with it?

Maybe it's the latest anti-otter deployment missile located in a region where the blighters can't chew through the control cables?

 

[jasonbean1]

".."........."""