Hitting the Eastern European problem head on, morality v’s self interest?

trotter2

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Ok give them the benefit of the doubt I say

Its difficult to understand when you come from a nationality that except the catching and removal of coarse fish for the dinner table as the norm I can understand that.

However as a representative its all to easy to play the innocent card we hear all to often.
The most notable response is " we cant (read) understand the signs " which is the get out of jail card used by some, we hear all to often.

However when clubs respond to this excuse and install signs at "great expense" in other languages other than common English.
The problem still persists, so not sure education would work IMO.
 

daji

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Really?!? Page 23 and you lot still haven't hammered out a solution, agreeable to all? :wh :D
 

wes79

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Really?!? Page 23 and you lot still haven't hammered out a solution, agreeable to all? :wh :D

In all honesty daji, do you think anything is likely to change or a solution be found that speaks to us all?

I'm skeptical that we can, reduced to observation from the sideline.
Defeatist perhaps, but I cannot honestly say I feel we have success on any of the points raised yet, we have laws but increasing lawlessness, we have licencee holders and poacher able to use the same waters, we are told we cannot rely on ourselves and must accept government interference (or lack of in this case).
As a country as diverse as this in population and walks of life, even if every fisherman was in agreement we would still find ourselves in a minority, as most people are not interested anyway.
Blood sport/animal rights activists are probably laughing there drilled tiger nuts off at how this is panning out, so what do we do?
It seems to me we cannot really do anything constructive apart from debate the issue.
Not knocking you either Benny, you obviously very passionate about doing something, but how effective is it overall?
We rely on "representatives" or should that be we "pay" representatives to work these kinds of things out for us, which it seems even they either cannot be bothered or simply have no idea how to or the cards are just stacked to high against reversing any problems, even buying an EA license is becoming a bit of a joke.

You can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

But then again, after a long dangerously extreme think about it I actually came up with the best solution in the world, ever....
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.Drum roll please.
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We catch the poacher!



We could have competitions, who can catch the ugliest fattest poacher, design new rope rigs and tactics to catch them, a bit of night catching, river reports and club stretches detailing the best times of night to catch, "swim of the month" & "greatest snitch" awards, debate catch and release (in years), sacking, pre-baiting using EA fish stocks, AGM members club with buffet & disco.....
T-shirts with named poachers on them for bragging rights/mystique, sinister-syndicates, Tag"n"Bag"n"Hand-in-cuff TM brand manufacturing using the latest in poacher catching tackle tazers , Police charity catch night with recovery divers committee, EA Master Class, Celebrity talks on PC forum groundbaiting, Poacher hunter/stalker river side demonstrations, Spliff's, "Don't be a dirty racist" book signing & award ceremony with Pike BBQ, PVA (PikeVeryAdorable) language barrier dictaphone/phrase book, Craft night school (how to turn nets into hammocks) why not join in the fun....book early to avoid disapointment, you f'''' bunch of Toby's LOL
 
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Nobby C (ACA)

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I blame the police ;)

I blame ex-pats sticking their PC beaks in matters that don't affect them because their adopted country shuffles the problem across the channel. The old bill have been found wanting in the past, over in la la land this has miraculously cured the entire system of all wrong doing. Ever. How come the garde due peche are on the case but PC PC Plod can't be tossed with the paperwork in the UK?
The sad irony is that you had a great chance to make a difference by dint of your job title but didn't.
 
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itsfishingnotcatching

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The old bill have been found wanting in the past, over in la la land this has miraculously cured the entire system of all wrong doing. Ever. How come the garde due peche are on the case but PC PC Plod can't be tossed with the paperwork in the UK?
The sad irony is that you had a great chance to make a difference by dint of your job title but didn't

As someone whose late Father-in-Law spent 30 years on the force, following 7 years in the RN and whose Niece and Husband are serving Police officers I find your comments at best uninformed and at worst offensive. Exactly what are your qualifications to comment on the operations of the police force and the restrictions they have to work with?

Mods, if this thread can't be saved, please lock it.
 

Peter Jacobs

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This thread appears to be turning into a vehicle for targeted insult, and that is a shame considering it had a reasonable original intent.

Absolutely the final warning to please keep this to the point and avoid personal invective.
 

wes79

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right.....

kettles on, who fancies a brew? :)

how many sugars lads?

Anyone fancy nipping out to fetch some milk, this ones gone to yoghurt :eek:

Just on a bit of a side note, I went carp fishing earlier yesterday (local pond), apparently the old boy who does the day tickets is seriously ill and the water is not being bailiff'd (found that out by another fisherman next peg...(I think he was a bernard or a Dave, I'm s&%t with names), (had my licence and a fiver in my top pocket, so hope you guys do not class that as poaching?) first time I've ever fished the place, seen loads of people on there and always stop for a chat if I'm on my way past, loads of BS stories, there is good head of Carp upto 30lb, Pike upto 28lb is the biggest yet caught there apparently (I don't know do I?) so got me chair out, rolled a fat spliff (joke) and sat there reading my signed JW "catch carp & tench (signed) book that I saw a while back on the car boot for 50p (for real), nothing for 4 hrs, 45minutes a cast roughly (is that to long?) saw loads of beasts going back and to or just the tops of their headsfrom different islands in the same straight line each time, tactics.... laid a snare in the middle of this route and there was a nice bit of Warburtons being sucked off the top directly above where I had cast to, already ate me sarnies, damn, these floaters was the remnants of a dad and child duck feed earlier that was slowly moving out from the margin, clever fish, took the freebee and avoided mine each time one went past, I waited some more, nothing, so changed bait to a ball of worm from bollie, couple of small knock got me adrenalin going, sat some more, rolled another fat spliff (I don't smoke), waited, nothing, turned me ghetto blaster right down and had a rummage in the old stink bag, remembered I had found a mepps on my travels, was stil there where I forgot about it, decided to put that on, withing seconds of my first cast a Perch, nice size just under half a pound I reckon (that decent size for me believe), then another.....so decided to have a wonder from my "carp" swim fanning out as much of the water I could, nothing, thought I'll have a few more casts and call it a day as the light was fading, then bang, biggest Pike yet, absolutely HUGE (my approximation about 8 or 9 pound!) made up after that, no trace either, pure on the fly tactics (about 5inches of carp braid I used) using my quivver feeder rod and a mepps I found at a pond somewhere else missing its hooks, ended up robbing one off of a Aldi fishing lure (i had paid for it first like) and used that to bring it back into service).

That's it really, just had to tell someone..

biscuits?
 
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wes79

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That's either a wind up or just plain irresponsible.

:eek:mg: Sorry to disappoint you Crow, don't let that spliff go out, puff puff give.


Are you able to attend, much better opportunity, we have a date for the buffet and disco? Will you be wishing me to be putting you on the guest list, its fancy dress?

So what do you think we should do about the EE thing, Crow? It is a terrible situation is it not?
 
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trotter2

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I definitely would not blame the police for this mess. I know a few coppers and I can tell you its no easy job. And its definitely a job I would back heel if I was you LOL.

What started all this in my view is politicians private school boys who need to get a grip. I just wonder how many actually honestly believe some of the PC garbage that they spin out week after week on stitch up shows like the well know one on the BBC.
Politicians playing deliberately the popular vote card got us in this mess.
It made each and every one of us paranoid to speak out, in case you were branded a racist. Unfortunately that lead to criminals simply getting away with it
 
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Judas Priest

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Well said Trotter.
The police take a battering for everything these days from EE's illegally fishing to mental health care in the community and just who fostered and continues to foster these ideologies. The politicos that's who because it suits to target the police whilst they hide and cover their own ineptitudes and failings in dealing with any real issues effecting the country.

Fly the flag of St George and you are branded a racist, yet fly the Welsh or Scottish flag and you are suddenly patriotic, ask yourselves why.

Being ENGLISH and proud has nothing to do with skin colour or religious belief as can be seen by the thousands of Muslims and other religions born here who are immensely proud to be ENGLISH, but to listen to those who scream RACIST at every opportunity you'd believe it has everything to do with it, ask yourself who is the racist now.

The politicos foster these ideals and the knuckleheads continue to believe them and until people start to question those so called ideals the country will continue its downward spiral.
 

trotter2

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Nice one Judas

Pleased some one else has there head screwed on.:thumbs:
 

bennygesserit

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Well said Trotter.
The police take a battering for everything these days from EE's illegally fishing to mental health care in the community and just who fostered and continues to foster these ideologies. The politicos that's who because it suits to target the police whilst they hide and cover their own ineptitudes and failings in dealing with any real issues effecting the country.

Fly the flag of St George and you are branded a racist, yet fly the Welsh or Scottish flag and you are suddenly patriotic, ask yourselves why.

Being ENGLISH and proud has nothing to do with skin colour or religious belief as can be seen by the thousands of Muslims and other religions born here who are immensely proud to be ENGLISH, but to listen to those who scream RACIST at every opportunity you'd believe it has everything to do with it, ask yourself who is the racist now.

The politicos foster these ideals and the knuckleheads continue to believe them and until people start to question those so called ideals the country will continue its downward spiral.


I agree with you and certainly the events in Rotherham were unforgivable ( same thing is now happening where I live ) but its a plain fact there is still a degree of racism and sexism in our country and in the same way a lot of people are branded racist a lot of people are dismissed as the PC brigade , when it suits.
 

no-one in particular

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The last figure I heard is that migration is about 600.000 a year (net 300.000). Even with the latest curbs it could only half that amount. No political party I know of, even the far right ones, have a policy of deportation and none of them are going to get elected anyway. Even if we voted out of the EU, these migrants are here to stay. Many might not like it but, we do not really have a choice on the matter, we are stuck with it.
Given that scenario, would it a better policy to become their friends. Help to integrate them into our society and its customs. Instead of throwing the law at them the first opportunity, throw it at them after becoming their friend first. They are far more likely to listen. Anglers could do more. Friendly fishing matches arranged by the AT and clubs could be one angle; why not. Anglers arranging meetings with whatever organizations exist that represent them. Effort on our part, but it may accomplish more than just relying on the law to sort the problem out; which from what I have read, is not going to make much impact.
 
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arthur2sheds

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Help to integrate them into our society and its customs. Instead of throwing the law at them the first opportunity, throw it at them after becoming their friend first. They are far more likely to listen.

Yup.... right up till they start secular communities and practice customs such as Sharia law

The Eastern Europeans by and large are decent folk but many seem to have an outlook that back in their home countries would see them branded as a loveable rogue... over here they are out and out criminals...

this country should operate a tougher system for dealing with criminals, as we are seen as the European "Soft Touch"

and I 'd make folk work for benefits (if not disabled)foreign or British
 

no-one in particular

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Yup.... right up till they start secular communities and practice customs such as Sharia law

That's the point, it would help discourage them from setting up secular communities. The angling community could play a small part in helping it along. More to the point, putting benefits aside, which has nothing to do with taking fish illegally, it would help encourage and educate them to become law abiding anglers and encourage others to be the same. Which in turn would mean less taking of fish illegally.
 
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nicepix

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I agree with you and certainly the events in Rotherham were unforgivable ( same thing is now happening where I live ) but its a plain fact there is still a degree of racism and sexism in our country and in the same way a lot of people are branded racist a lot of people are dismissed as the PC brigade , when it suits.

The thing is that some people are so hell bent on criticising anything or anybody in the establishment they will argue black is white and vica versa to suit their argument without any shadow of guilt or embarrassment. These are the same people who fail to put any reasonable suggestions forward as to how the problem can be solved. Just contenting themselves with sniping from the sidelines.

You cannot blame the police for the failings of society when their hands have been tied by financial and political bonds. Ask yourself why the detection rate remains so low when science has given us fantastic tools such as CCTV and DNA profiling? Nothing to do with the police. They would love to use these tools to their best advantage, but can't because of cost or obstructive legislation. When you get an enquiry such as the 7/7 bombings you get an idea of what is possible when the stakes are high enough to warrant a full scale investigation. But ask a forensic scientist to examine a screwdriver that was used in crime and recovered by the householder and they will refuse to do so. They impose rules based on financial profiteering that impact on British Justice. Ask your Sergeant to authorise a forensic examination of a glass fragment sample taken from the clothing of a suspect and they will be reluctant to have the cost of that examination taken from the shift budget unless the crime is of a serious nature. The old 'Mars Bar' adage of British Justice where someone could be tried at Crown Court at a cost of millions for theft of a Mars Bar is long gone. Similarly no Inspector is going to authorise half a dozen of his shift to do obs on a carp pond when he only has ten officers to patrol the whole district and two or three of them are baby sitting vulnerable people all bight because the Social Services have cut their staff. Why no CCTV on the crime scene? Because you would not be likely to get authorisation to put a CCTV camera up where it might impact on the privacy of innocent individuals unless it was a crime of really serious nature and no one could authorise police CCTV on private land for this kind of enquiry.

If you haven't done the job you don't really know why the Criminal Justice System is failing.

---------- Post added at 17:42 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------

The last figure I heard is that migration is about 600.000 a year (net 300.000). Even with the latest curbs it could only half that amount. No political party I know of, even the far right ones, have a policy of deportation and none of them are going to get elected anyway. Even if we voted out of the EU, these migrants are here to stay.

Mark, The people who are causing this problem aren't illegal immigrants. They are EU citizens and as such have as much right to be in the UK as you do. If the UK chooses to come out of the EU then the position of whether they could stay or not would have to be addressed.

---------- Post added at 17:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:42 ----------

I definitely would not blame the police for this mess. I know a few coppers and I can tell you its no easy job. And its definitely a job I would back heel if I was you LOL.

What started all this in my view is politicians private school boys who need to get a grip. I just wonder how many actually honestly believe some of the PC garbage that they spin out week after week on stitch up shows like the well know one on the BBC.
Politicians playing deliberately the popular vote card got us in this mess.
It made each and every one of us paranoid to speak out, in case you were branded a racist. Unfortunately that lead to criminals simply getting away with it

The open door policy on immigration by the previous government is now the subject of apologies from almost all those who came up with the idea including many of the leading politicians of the day with one notable exception and even the guy in charge of the Equalities Commission for that period. The unfortunate thing is that it is now too late and too difficult to put things right.
 

trotter2

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Hi Mark
Not getting at you M8
But I can see three problem with that
One is who will organize such an education program, who will finance it. And more to the point would anyone be interested and attend.
 

wes79

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What if EE's don't want to integrate or are just simply happy to continue emptying waters of fish?

What compulsion does anyone have now to integrate?

Without the connotations that can be given/offered to promoting deportation, for the sake of putting emotions aside and just sticking to the facts only.....

How do we propose we can stop theft without first having a law that gives guidance to it being wrong? Without the law on theft, theft becomes ok and grows within a society.

Everyone should benefit from the fruits of the Law (me, you not even excluding the thief & rapist) which is why when someone comes to your house you want to invite them in and share stuff. (keep your hands off the oatcakes though....they are mine :D)

IE guidence, protection and to go all out on it....if you want all that for yourself or for others and for everyone in the future.....what good enough reason do we have for not giving what is good for everyone, withholding something that is good promotes bad things, like in the absence of heat things go cold.

My dad was (and always will be) the man of the house, he provided everything I needed, he set the house rules, he dished out the punishments when guidance was needed, I quickly learned that the rules were for my own good, they made perfect sense, when they didn't, mature wisdom was offered and learned but never had to come by persuasion, because it was self evident.
I learned that when I adhered to these rules, they allowed me to have a much better relationship with the master of the house AND I always avoided being punished as a bonus, wow who would argue AGAINST getting along smoothly AND no punishments? I would call that a RESULT!
So using the same analogy to describe the situation with the EE thing, daddy cannot dish out punishments anymore because its no longer considered guidance, but might even be taught, construed, extrapolated and educationally accepted to be as perverse by definition as abuse, even going as far as inviting outside intervention from imposter rule makers in the mans house.

Currently the boundary between guidance, protection & abuse is becoming blurred. Make no mistake. We are all now in the present, asking why is this even happening?

I don't like him, he smokes spliffs, or he is a dirty Ra.a...a..a ed while I support Blue etc, now throw into the mix a couple of medieval feudalistic religions that cannot be compromised with, a few hundred different language barriers, a massive bureaucratic brick wall between wageslave and his sticky Representative, a country of people who have worked tirelessly for generations to build things that were after all meant to be enjoyed well into the future as show of love FOR the future.

So using the same analogy again, if son has a friend stop over, the house rules still apply, or do they?

Are they up for consideration or debate?

What does daddy do, after grafting all day, comes home and finds the friend of his son who is in his house, is caught red handed taking his four pack of lager out of the fridge, which is daddy's as he worked hard for it and is thirsty?
Has son's friend been in the house long enough to make new rules allowing him to take Beer he hasn't worked to pay for?

If you answered yes then why bother having rules then?

If we cannot be bothered to maintain laws that serve EVERYONE, or have decided a step back in time is a step forward in prosperity, how can daddy claim he deserves his fourth can of lager while his sons friend casually sips that nice gassy cold thirst quenching liquid?

Snooze, you lose.

---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

If the UK chooses to come out of the EU then the position of whether they could stay or not would have to be addressed.

Who voted for a foreign power in a British voting/polling booth nicepix?

Are the laws for treason still applicable in the UK? Just an after thought.
 
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