Hitting the Eastern European problem head on, morality v’s self interest?

[wes79]

Still ducking and diving.



Again, show us where the Queen has refused to endorse or changed any laws passed by Parliament because of the 'conflict of interest' you claim threatens British Justice.

Would you even recognize one if it came and slapped you in the face?

D-notices (with the complicity of HER Police force!), anti-Iraq war march is the biggest clue to the relationship between Queen and subject, how does a country go to war without the overwhelming public backing, do tell nicepix, is that little thing called royal assent needed?)

 

[nicepix]

Would you even recognize one if it came and slapped you in the face?

D-notices (with the complicity of HER Police force!), anti-Iraq war march is the biggest clue to the relationship between Queen and subject, how does a country go to war without the overwhelming public backing, do tell nicepix, is that little thing called royal assent needed?)

Doesn't come close to answering the question. Did the Queen overturn her Government's decision to go to war, taken after a vote in the House of Commons? Nope. What has the Queen got to do with issuing D Notices? Sod all.

Another post full of nonsense because you haven't got an answer.

 

[dangermouse]

I haven`t really been following this thread for a while but I just noticed the Royal Assent/Consent babble. (It`s assent btw, a so called royal correspondent really should know that)

I`ve no idea how aware of this the general public is. Probably many of them are not. I`m fully aware of it though. It`s been part of our unwritten constitution since the 13thC. Any half decent history student could tell you that.

These days it`s pretty much a formality although the possibility of a monarch exercising that power is still well within the law. In fact you`d have to go back to the 18th century to find the last instance of a monarch withholding royal assent on a bill of law. Therefore any notion that there is a reason to be paranoid about it`s existence is, well, just paranoia.

Personally I`m rather glad it`s there. It means there is no chance of us ending up with a dictator who will rule for life. It also means our royal family can`t be abolished by parliament.

 

[wes79]

Wes, I have lifted quotes using copy / paste from your original or subsequently edited text. You have failed once again to answer the questions choosing instead to fill the void with other things. I draw from that a conclusion that you have no evidence to back up your opinions. Which is rather strange given your propensity to demand supporting information from those who have differing opinions to yourself.

I would disagree by saying you have neither honored the acceptance or shown you even could, when someone HAS provided links to statements that you asked to be sourced, correctly.

Regards the Swedish example, it matters not one jot to this thread. But you thought you could use a remote example to make your case probably not expecting to be challenged. There is no PC Brick Wall preventing investigation as you put it: "but is still silenced by PC rules for discussing RACE in a negative light" If there was a PC policy of silence still in place as you outline you could not quote the figures outlining the racial profile of offenders.

If it mattered not one jot why did you give the time to reply, ego? I gave you facts (even patiently having to repeat them over and over again) but maybe you were in the hope that I would give my opinions instead of linking what you thought were my opinions, which were in fact Police studies on sexual crimes in a european country, even the fact that they were being published in retrospect completely went over your head, more than once, so you could validate another ad-hom at my writing style and coherency to deflect upon your own, as my views still opposed yours with explanation.

Regards the monarch's conflict of interest; again there is nothing in what you said that affects this thread. You simply plucked something out of Anarchist's Weekly that you thought would muddy the waters long enough for you to slip out of the back door. There has never been any threat to British Justice because of the Queen's oath to God has there?

Tell that to the victims of those raped under her watch, the polices watch, the judiciaries watch, but hey, some people can't be convinced by the reflection in the mirror!

anarchist weekly...please mg: just can't help yourself can you mansize

I'm going to leave you now to continue this debate with Nobby. It should prove quite interesting as you assert that the British Legal System is swayed against the indigenous people due to the abeyance of political correctness whilst he argues that the police are institutionally racist. Should make for an interesting spectacle given both your history of supporting your assertions with somewhat dodgy and in your case irrelevant information.


Leaving us already?

The police are racist, if they aren't then they don't use the words "Black" "Asian" or Caucasian to describe the difference between people when they radio in a suspect....:wh
Even nature is racist, DNA is probably the most racist of all!

Who coined the word racist? (homework in by monday morning)

you'll be back.

oh and here is another piece of alleged irrelevant information, for you nicepix (did you fail to notice it takes two to keep this thread off topic for over 20 posts...no I don't suppose you did notice that either).

Q: Who plays the most important role of replenishing a civilized society?

A: The woman (the child bearer, who produces both male and female.)

So when the Swedish nation is not discriminating against young women being sent out to fight illegal wars (just like in all Euro countries), during their most biologically fertile years, or promoting women to useless work roles while their eggs dry up and later gamble with IVF (naturally in homage to sexual equality at work PC...go girls) or get raped by men (who are protected by PC because they are in a minority) but not protected by US or just want to over stretch their bodies by masculine sport doctrines...just remember its NOT PC its the power of a fully informed mind giving freely given consent to NOT think about the future.
And to leave you with a quick fire round pub quiz question...

Q: Who plays the most important role of replenishing a civilized society?

A: The woman (the child bearer, who produces both male and female alike.)

 

[nicepix]

Wes, you have been found out and found wanting. Dodging questions, filling the void with nonsense and trying to claim the other party is at fault. All common tactics of the desperate debater.

If you can provide the answers I ask for I will gladly debate further with you. Until then, carry on with Nobby. You both have much to discuss.

Over and out.

 

[Nobby C (ACA)]

Mcpherson stated that, I just pointed it out while you were getting on your high horse as some sort of defender of PC. And again, you first came up with a time scale,well I believe 15 years is within the limits of your experience spanning 25 years. Clearly you weren't paying any attention to the report, presumably because it didn't concern your outfit, therefore it is irrelevant. I threw it in the mix just as a reminder that your team aren't exactly tolerant when it comes to racial stereotyping but you'd rather brush it under the carpet because you personally, had no experience of it. The worlds flat as well tha knows. Off you go then, can't substantiate your statements, all this legalese guff you keep coming out with, typical plod waffling on about party of the first part this and constitution that. It matters not what the laws are if they get broken with impunity by sections of society because the police feel it's too trivial a matter to pursue. What the heck does any of this matter to you, tucked away in the nation of pond robbers allowing the hordes to stow away to cross the channel. I only wish you'd see first hand the effects of this poaching, I reckon you'd change your tune once a few catfish get grilled on the bank among the litter piles.

 

[nicepix]

Mcpherson stated that, I just pointed it out while you were getting on your high horse as some sort of defender of PC. And again, you first came up with a time scale,well I believe 15 years is within the limits of your experience spanning 25 years. Clearly you weren't paying any attention to the report, presumably because it didn't concern your outfit, therefore it is irrelevant. I threw it in the mix just as a reminder that your team aren't exactly tolerant when it comes to racial stereotyping but you'd rather brush it under the carpet because you personally, had no experience of it. The worlds flat as well tha knows. Off you go then, can't substantiate your statements, all this legalese guff you keep coming out with, typical plod waffling on about party of the first part this and constitution that. It matters not what the laws are if they get broken with impunity by sections of society because the police feel it's too trivial a matter to pursue. What the heck does any of this matter to you, tucked away in the nation of pond robbers allowing the hordes to stow away to cross the channel. I only wish you'd see first hand the effects of this poaching, I reckon you'd change your tune once a few catfish get grilled on the bank among the litter piles.

No Nobby. I brushed it under the carpet because it doesn't prove that all the police are racist now as you stated. It is a fifteen year old report about one police force. Other than to you it proves diddly-squat.

If you took the trouble to read what I have written on the reasons why this theft of fish happens and how it could be solved you would realise how stupid your rant against me is. But you aren't really one for bothering to get things right as we can see.

Just remember the police cannot be both racist as you imply and go easy on foreigners as Wes tries to make out. So, once you two have managed to work out which if any of you are right let me know.

 

[wes79]

Wes, you have been found out and found wanting. Dodging questions, filling the void with nonsense and trying to claim the other party is at fault. All common tactics of the desperate debater.

If you can provide the answers I ask for I will gladly debate further with you. Until then, carry on with Nobby. You both have much to discuss.

Over and out.

Ah, welcome back!

Yes so you keep saying, have you lifted the needle on that broken record yet?, (that means the questions I asked that you have so far avoided during the same debate also go un answered).

You also seem set on pairing me and Nobby up because that way you can take a back seat and just answer the questions your knowledge can afford you, at your own leisure of course, instead of having to (or not so the case might be) when respectfully prompted like in any normal debate (or like I wrongly expected you might when I asked of you)

Keep up the good work!

over and out.

---------- Post added at 13:44 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

Just remember the police cannot be both racist as you imply and go easy on foreigners as Wes tries to make out. So, once you two have managed to work out which if any of you are right let me know.

No, that's right, just when it suits them.

By the way, how are the Police doing catching all these fish thieves and rapists, said to be crimes on the increase so plenty of Police camera action one should expect?

Nothing hindering the copper hauling in his catch?

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:44 ----------

Doesn't come close to answering the question. Did the Queen overturn her Government's decision to go to war, taken after a vote in the House of Commons? Nope. What has the Queen got to do with issuing D Notices? Sod all.

Another post full of nonsense because you haven't got an answer.

Who voted for the war?

The subjects?

I thought they marched in protest against it? mg:

 

[nogoodboyo]

I've just done a quick Google search of fishing holidays in Poland.
Apparently the lakes and rivers are teeming with fish.
Surely not. The natives would have emptied them.
Something doesn't add up here.

 

[nicepix]

I've just done a quick Google search of fishing holidays in Poland.
Apparently the lakes and rivers are teeming with fish.
Surely not. The natives would have emptied them.
Something doesn't add up here.

I blame the police

 

[bennygesserit]

You brought up the time scale of 25 years but now say you were only concerned with the force (ooh sorry, service) you served with. So when you said "our" force, what you really meant was the county you served in? Don't fall off that ladder.



I'm still waiting for you to back your accusation towards me that I don't speak openly. Have you got too much muesli to crochet or something?

Usually when the name calling starts I lose interest but one last go as I think its worth saying - I'd agree with you re immigration I think the Country and its infrastructure are already too stressed to cope with the impact of more people , especially those whose culture differs from our own so much. Schools , Hospitals , Police are too stretched right now without the additional burden. So on that , possibly we agree.

But more sacrosanct even than that is the idea that if you are up in front of a Judge , or an employer , or an industrial tribunal or any one of our institutions you get exactly the same chance as anyone else no matter how fat , old , gay , black , white , queer or even dare I say it ( carp angler ) you are.

Anyway like I said if its getting personal we have both lost the argument - tight lines.

 

[Titus]

I cant be bothered to read all this, have we come to a consensus yet? Are all coppers barstewards? Is the Queen a racist? (of course not, she married an immigrant). Are carp tasty? I had black bream for tea last night, try it she said, it's lovely........... I'll stick with the cod and chips thanks.

 

[wes79]

These days it`s pretty much a formality although the possibility of a monarch exercising that power is still well within the law. In fact you`d have to go back to the 18th century to find the last instance of a monarch withholding royal assent on a bill of law. Therefore any notion that there is a reason to be paranoid about it`s existence is, well, just paranoia.

That would depend on what was being put forward to be considered for withholding (or not as the case maybe).

I wouldn't joke about it mate, its only paranoia if its not actually happening.

Besides if its just a formality then its already more akin to a collective dictatorship anyway with perpetual longevity of different parties that never repeal each others oh so different laws, steering the people straight to the EU, which was undemocratic from the beginning, at best one vote that lets the people only democratically vote for a party, but never its leaders or policies still in the pipeline up to seven years ahead.

sounds a tad dodgy to me


Good luck with that.

Oh and God save the Queen!

 

[maverick 7]

The problem with arguments regarding Political Correctness is that one group is arguing about the benefits of "pure" PC...and the other group are arguing about the ridiculous "offshoots" of Political Correctness"...an example of which I posted a short while ago.

This is the problem with it all....as I said earlier, some hard line PC bigwigs always seem to want to take it that step further and make the whole concept that little bit more ridiculous...and that sort of tinkering does the first groups argument no good at all....What we need is to get rid of these "loonies" and attempt to introduce PC's better attributes and persuade these idiots to stop performing some of the laughable, so called PC events we see almost everyday.

...er, also in my opinion.....Political Correctness has a very unhealthy, almost binding connection with racism....which I find rather overbearing.

Maverick

 

[wes79]

The problem with arguments regarding Political Correctness is that one group is arguing about the benefits of "pure" PC...and the other group are arguing about the ridiculous "offshoots" of Political Correctness"...an example of which I posted a short while ago.

This is the problem with it all....as I said earlier, some hard line PC bigwigs always seem to want to take it that step further and make the whole concept that little bit more ridiculous...and that sort of tinkering does the first groups argument no good at all....What we need is to get rid of these "loonies" and attempt to introduce PC's better attributes and persuade these idiots to stop performing some of the laughable, so called PC events we see almost everyday.

...er, also in my opinion.....Political Correctness has a very unhealthy, almost binding connection with racism....which I find rather overbearing.

Maverick

I would agree with most of what you wrote Mav,

My beef is that we ARE now confronted with the very real and politically incorrect situation of a law system that has proved quite effective in the past but has then suddenly stopped working, easily evidenced by statistical data and police surveys into certain crimes, spanning the infancy of mass immigration till now, when someone shows a concern regarding this ugly topic and that once it has been referenced to be completely in tandem with mass immigration, like I foolishly did, strange things start to happen.

Ineffective law now takes a backseat.

The deafening silence of denial kicks in and is met with a level of cognitive dissonance that is equally unbearable and wholly conforms to such PC on the basis of hush hush what are you going on about you mad man (let the failing system deal with it).
People who show some concern are at some point in such a debate going to have to accept that they will be labelled as a racist (or have to suffer the thinly veiled accusations that they have an opinion that IS racist) when really the interpretation of concern becomes entangled with PC as it does unfortunately deal with different races of people.

This unbiased notion of "equality" cannot be justified when you consider who pays for the maintenance of the law system, the police, the judiciary through the weakest of representation, its effectively fighting it out with what can be said, what can't be said, while all the time the facts and evidence speak for themselves and the problem continues to grow, unsolved.

I don't care what people think of me anymore, I've had to come to terms with the fact that as long as its not effecting them or its not their waters being effected or their daughters being raped its simply best ignored or outright denied, let someone who gives a F*&^% deal with it, as to discuss this kind of topic head on, I've recently found means someone is going to have to stick their head above the parapet and struggle to accept different eyes see a different world, or future.

 

[nicepix]

Ironic that when discussing the question of EEs stealing fish the debate is always hi-jacked by people who are Poles Apart

Whether you believe the conspiracy mongers is up to you. But my view as indicated much earlier is that the problem of EEs stealing fish is real and a symptom of the Criminal Justice System going soft. People seeking to link it to the Rotherham Sex Scandal and insinuate that there is a policy of turning a blind eye to it because it involves foreigners are barking up the wrong tree. Or trying to use it to promote their extreme views.

Wildlife crime has never in my experience been taken seriously. I was the Wildlife & Countryside Officer for my district back in 1989 and kept up some involvement for around 20 years. I visited several other Forces and was part of many operations. It was like banging your head on a brick wall trying to achieve results. Senior officers would not spend money on what they deemed a minor issue. When I pointed out that the local deer poachers were also committing burglaries and stealing 4x4 vehicles and caravans while ranging out between Nth York's and Bedfordshire the Superintendent asked why "we" should spend money detecting "their" crimes? Back in 1992 I identified three abattoirs that were being used to process stolen deer to the extent of £250K a year. Nothing was done because it was regarded as a 'soft' crime in that no one was hurt. hat was in the 90's and it hasn't got any better. More recent operations carried out by my own Force are nothing short of publicity stunts.

There are three reasons why the police are reluctant to get involved in Wildlife crime in my experience;

Firstly it is not seen as serious by the management.

Secondly as a result of mis-management the senior officers have lost control of the call handling and incident handling side of things and allowed too much police time to be wasted on non core activities. This meaning that the operational officers are far too stretched to devote time to these matters even if they were deemed serious.

Thirdly there are not that many officers with the skills or knowledge to catch the culprits. And if there were they would find themselves hamstrung by H&S regulations thus reducing any chance of real success.

There is in my opinion no conspiracy to allow EEs to steal fish in the way that the Asians in Rotherham and elsewhere were given immunity from prosecution. Thankfully that aspect belongs in the past. No current senior police officer is going to risk being drawn before a Parliamentary Committee on that score.

EE's stealing fish, Romanian pick pocket gangs, Vietnamese cannabis factories are only high profile crimes due to the attentions of the media. There are a lot more ills in society and more serious matters to address that don't get mentioned. And they are all linked to the same causes.

 

[thecrow]

Time to dust off the man traps, they don't care where you are from

 

[trotter2]

The reason why people have became intolerant, is purely based on the fact that all of this has been brushed under the carpet for to long. Anyone speaking out on such terms was branded a racist. And were did that get us ?
There is always regardless of backgrounds those that will exploit the law if you leave the door open.
Equal laws if you don't like them **** off back.

 

[wes79]

I rest my case!

So now its the "criminal justice system" but its soft approach is not linked to immigration at all, LOL
Thats right folks, none of it has ANYTHING to do what so ever with immigration and rapes adn fish theft are in no way shape or form related through immigration! It has nothing to do with the fact that to break British laws they had to enter the UK first, by any means possible, it all makes sense now!
And anyone who identifies EE as non English or identified the "Asian" (that means they might be chinese just incase you were wondering) gangs singling out _____ women only, while the "asians" all being coincidentally non-_____ had nothing to do with ____ OR immigration and the two are definitely not linked by immigration, that's right people, and its extreme to even think about it, don't be extreme people!
Rape is bad, but discussing others having done so is far worse, its EXTREME!!!! and makes you automatically racist by default,yup, its true, a fact, proven, so ...where were we, ah Deer hunting and H&S barriers...continue.....

Its a conspiracy!

The real culprit is H&S regulations, yes that's right, if ever there was one thing that gets in the way of LAW or police doing there job its obviously a lack of hard hat and a pair of steel toe capped boots or not wearing a hi-viz while on shift.

Glad we could finally get the priorities right.(and to think the po po already have guns and now tazers.....but they forgot the hard hat!)

Things are looking up already.

There is in my opinion no conspiracy to allow EEs to steal fish in the way that the Asians in Rotherham and elsewhere were given immunity from prosecution. Thankfully that aspect belongs in the past. No current senior police officer is going to risk being drawn before a Parliamentary Committee on that score.

That's right people, too right! Now the Police and judges are back from their holiday, we will never see another rape again, or another fish stolen, or a dodgy Deer at the car boot sale, rest assured!

I say we invite more immigrants from just about anywhere, all convicts and let them have free choice, just to prove we are not racist! Its the only solution to the problems! We are going to need more prisons so why not get that help to build and fill from abroad? YAY!

I hope nicepix can detect the hint of sarcasm, but I agree with what he said, at the end of the day the police are told what to do, they are not their own boss, if they just went all renegade they would decrease there own chances of eating and keeping a roof over their heads and find themselves going halves on a buttery pike with a hairy Bulgarian under a bridge! So if police boss man say's this is a waste of time (fish theft & gang rape) then it simply will not get sorted!

Would you agree nicepix that with hindsight people eventually got to know that Jimmy Saville didn't really fix it for anyone?
In your opinion could we apply the forsight ,now, to the fish theft and gang rape or do you think it is to late?

 

[Rich P]

Education? Sorry , my daughters friend from the cheque republik came to stay at my house for a week a few years back. Returning from a days barbel fishing on the Trent midweek she enquired if I had caught any fish. "Yes, one or two nice ones" I replied. "Where are they" she enquired. "I returned them to the river to grow bigger and reproduce otherwise there wont be any left".
She then pointed a finger to her head and turned it around a few times saying"you english-crazy".
She told me her father was a fisherman and anything cuaght was placed in a salt barrel behind the house and her favourite tench were her families christmas day meal.
This from a woman with a degree from university, who speaks four differant languages, and perfect english but whose taste buds have developed a liking for course fish to ask not to eat them? Sorry, its like any one of us being asked to give up our favourite cup of tea if we went to live in outer mongolia and put up with yaks milk.

Still reading the first page of the thread and felt compelled to respond to this one (sorry if it's already been done).

By education, no-one is suggesting they're each enrolled on a Bachelor of Science course. Education is about informing the poachers that it's illegal to remove fish for the table. I imagine you did a fine job and your daughter's friend returned home wiser (if a little dumbfounded), and the story has probably done the rounds.