Hitting the Eastern European problem head on, morality v’s self interest?

[no-one in particular]

Correct! And as soon as there's any news on it, you can be assured I'll bring it you
To Crow did you steal the fishing rights of the owner when did what you confess to doing?

Mark that's over two years old and has been implemented in the subsequent new national bye-laws that followed.

Ah right, my mistake, I have deleted it as its so old.

 

[bennygesserit]

Depends on what you mean by illegally, fishing waters on the QT you know I have fished some estate waters without permission, in fact nobody had permission. to answer your question fully have I stolen the fish I catch NO used illegal methods NO, stolen fish others have paid to fish for NO, used threats of violence against lawful anglers NO, (I have experience of that) killed the fish I catch NO, left dead lines and nets in a water not caring what happens to the fish that are unfortunate to be caught on /in them.

I stand by what I said, deport them. unfortunately for you I cant be deported or even transported for fishing where I did, if that's not quite PC old thing tough.

I know my post looked antagonistic that wasn't really my intention , though I was probably guilty of posting in a hurry. All of us have done something illegal at one time or another.

I understand how emotive it can be to see fish being taken I have seen two EE's taking fish away from a pool I used to fish , it is a thing that makes you mad , for anglers at any rate. Other things do as well - just like you ( and me ) fishing illegally gets the goat of some of the guys on here who are Baliffs.

However , as I said , anglers might take exception but I am not sure that the general public will , and while it seems like these guys are thumbing their nose at our culture its hardly the crime of the century and to me , doesn't deserve diverting to much , already stretched, Police resource

And if you are evaluating this crime against others , in order to prioritise , then where does throwing pike up the bank or moving carp , or fishing in the close season rank ? I have seen all these and all the perpetrators were British without fail.

I have spoken to a few EE guys on the bank , quite a few , not all , don't realise what an insult taking fish is to us. I think these are a group that its more effective to target through communication and education.

Some , however , feel as though its their right to take wild fish - I joined a Polish fishing forum and asked ( jerkbait.pl ) its a hot topic on there but there are a lot of conservation minded anglers on that forum campaigning for catch and release.

( incidentally we say tight lines they say break a Rod )

so even being a lefty PC Tree hugger I'll admit that a disproportionate amount of the guys who take and Eat fish are from EE but not all and I'd rather have a fair and just society and lose a few fish than one that treats people based on the ethnicity , age , sexual orientation , height , weight and all the other ways we are different from each other.

There all in one go , might be typos , and all without saying the R word.

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:06 ----------

Greetings from Britain - Ogólne - jerkbait.pl - spinning, baitcasting, flyfishing

 

[thecrow]

To Crow did you steal the fishing rights of the owner when did what you confess to doing?

Obviously not as nobody had them other than the Earl of .............. who as far as I know doesn't coarse fish and besides that it never involved the killing and taking of fish for the table which if memory serves me right is what this thread is about, if you are happy with what is going on good for you but don't expect others to feel the same.

---------- Post added at 19:43 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------

I know my post looked antagonistic that wasn't really my intention , though I was probably guilty of posting in a hurry. All of us have done something illegal at one time or another.

I understand how emotive it can be to see fish being taken I have seen two EE's taking fish away from a pool I used to fish , it is a thing that makes you mad , for anglers at any rate. Other things do as well - just like you ( and me ) fishing illegally gets the goat of some of the guys on here who are Baliffs.

However , as I said , anglers might take exception but I am not sure that the general public will , and while it seems like these guys are thumbing their nose at our culture its hardly the crime of the century and to me , doesn't deserve diverting to much , already stretched, Police resource

And if you are evaluating this crime against others , in order to prioritise , then where does throwing pike up the bank or moving carp , or fishing in the close season rank ? I have seen all these and all the perpetrators were British without fail.

I have spoken to a few EE guys on the bank , quite a few , not all , don't realise what an insult taking fish is to us. I think these are a group that its more effective to target through communication and education.

Some , however , feel as though its their right to take wild fish - I joined a Polish fishing forum and asked ( jerkbait.pl ) its a hot topic on there but there are a lot of conservation minded anglers on that forum campaigning for catch and release.

( incidentally we say tight lines they say break a Rod )

so even being a lefty PC Tree hugger I'll admit that a disproportionate amount of the guys who take and Eat fish are from EE but not all and I'd rather have a fair and just society and lose a few fish than one that treats people based on the ethnicity , age , sexual orientation , height , weight and all the other ways we are different from each other.

There all in one go , might be typos , and all without saying the R word.

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:06 ----------

Greetings from Britain - Ogólne - jerkbait.pl - spinning, baitcasting, flyfishing

Why me doing a bit of "guesting on some estate waters has anything to do with EEs killing fish after catching them with barbaric equipment I don't know, any bailiffs goat can be got as much as they want (some seem to think they don't need a bait boat as they can just walk out onto the water and place their bait) I really couldn't care less I did it, I enjoyed it, and if I was fit/healthy enough I would do it again and none of the self appointed guardians of our waters on here would catch me.

With that out of the way perhaps we could return to what the thread is about?
Not crime of the century but I tend to prioritise crimes by how they affect me, EEs killing fish affects me so I view it as something that should be acted on, if the authorities had no intention of acting on calls involving this why have a home office code for it, surely it wasn't just to shut the Angling Trust e.t.c. up was it ?:wh

Some EEs may feel its their right to take fish, truth is that in this country they are not but they still do it despite knowing that in OUR country it is not acceptable, if they don't like our laws they can always pi$$ off back where they are allowed to take fish (if there are any left.) and leave the fishing to anglers including EEs that respect the fish they angle for.

When you have seen EEs taking fish or English throwing Pike up the bank did you report them or did you think as the public probably do "there only fish" if you think that perhaps you should be looking for something else to fill your time

Catch them deport them, and don't let them back.

 

[maverick 7]

Detection?.....Punish them?.......Deport them

Don't let them in in the first place....unless they have a verified job waiting for them....do it the Aussie way....if you haven't got the skills the country requires you to have...then tough luck mate...thanks but no thanks.

This country is paying for enough people to live in this country as it is who simply have no intention of finding a job....or living by the rules as the rest of us has to do.

Don't get me wrong....I know one or two very nice EE's who have come to this country to seek a better life and they are prepared to do anything to get it...by anything I do mean legal....and only today on the bank...I met two very nice keen young EE anglers and spoke at length with them.....if only they were all like that.

Maverick

 

[Poshpaul (Angling Trust and PaSC)]

Well I've pointed out before, again!, that in Bulgaria it is illegal to take fish for the pot.(I am not sure that is the law in England ) I am fairly certain that the same applies in Hungary. Catch and release is encouraged in these states and most other Eastern European nations

However enforcement is virtually impossible. In the UK not every licence dodger will get their day in court or any person taking fish illegally will be dealt with appropriately. So it is in Eastern Europe...they do not have the staff to check licences are held....a legal requirement on "open waters"...although not on private ponds. They do not have the staff or resources to deal with illegal netting. And whilst I abhor the mass taking of fish....the level of poverty I see around in some areas near me...I cannot in all honesty deny some poor hungry person food because of my belief in catch and return.

Again repeating myself...most of the tv shows about fishing on Eastern European TV have a very very strong catch and release message (since we rarely have angling shows on UK TV....our new entrants to the country won't be getting the message).

Education has to be the way....backed up with enforcement where appropriate.

And don't forget...fish in Germany and put the fish you've caught back...you're commiting an offence!!

 

[The bad one]

Obviously not as nobody had them other than the Earl of .............. who as far as I know doesn't coarse fish and besides that it never involved the killing and taking of fish for the table which if memory serves me right is what this thread is about, if you are happy with what is going on good for you but don't expect others to feel the same

Not obviously not. Obviously "yes," you were sealing the Earl's fishing rights, matters not whether he coarse fished or not, or you weren't taking the fish to eat, stock elsewhere, etc. the rights were his, you had no permission from him to fish in his water, therefore you were stealing his fishing rights under the Theft Act and the law is very clear on that.
Where did I say I was happy with what's going on? I didn't! Far from it, but the point I think Greenie made is a relevant one and paraphrasing him, "why is ok for English anglers to guest, but not when EEs do it?" Both are wrong and illegal.

 

[thecrow]

Not obviously not. Obviously "yes," you were sealing the Earl's fishing rights, matters not whether he coarse fished or not, or you weren't taking the fish to eat, stock elsewhere, etc. the rights were his, you had no permission from him to fish in his water, therefore you were stealing his fishing rights under the Theft Act and the law is very clear on that.
Where did I say I was happy with what's going on? I didn't! Far from it, but the point I think Greenie made is a relevant one and paraphrasing him, "why is ok for English anglers to guest, but not when EEs do it?" Both are wrong and illegal.

Wrong and not for the first time, if you care to look at when "theft of fishing rights" became a crime under the theft act you would ( if you knew how old I was when I was guesting on the estate ) see that "theft of fishing rights" was not part of the act. As usual you jump in with both feet without the facts.

Quite a big difference between guesting and leaving no sign you have been there and killing fish that have been caught using dead lines and gill nets, there is no comparison, if you cannot see that there is no hope for you.

I never did say that you were happy with what was going on ( you never seem happy about anything) can I suggest you reread my post where you will see I said "if you are happy" I have no idea whatsoever if you are or not, I think its hilarious that my guesting bothers you and others so much.

Getting back to what this thread was started about, the ONLY way this can be stopped is by catching those responsible and deporting them never to be allowed back into this country, it wont happen because there is not the will nor the funding for it to happen, it would be different if it was an Otter that was caught using dead lines, there would be uproar, "there only fish though" aint they.

Education is NOT the answer, those that do it know its wrong, the only education they need is that if you are caught you will be deported.

St Georges day yesterday, he must be turning in his grave at what has happened to this country.

 

[maggot_dangler]

tell them duck and geese taste nicer and are easier to catch

You got that one a bit wrong there me laud Canada Goose tastes nicer :wh :thumbs:

PG ..

 

[bennygesserit]

St Georges day yesterday, he must be turning in his grave at what has happened to this country.

Ironically St George was born in what is now Israel and is a significant Martyr in the Eastern European Church among others of course.

 

[thecrow]

Ironically St George was born in what is now Israel and is a significant Martyr in the Eastern European Church among others of course.

I didn't realise that Israel was part of Eastern Europe, I know that tectonic plates move but that far?

 

[bennygesserit]

I didn't realise that Israel was part of Eastern Europe, I know that tectonic plates move but that far?

By your logic England must be in Israel too or rather your statement actually makes no real sense.

 

[thecrow]

By your logic England must be in Israel too or rather your statement actually makes no real sense.

What are you on about? what's that to do with EEs killing fish? Please try to stick to the thread.

 

[arthur2sheds]

given the lack of teeth in the courts and the lack of interest by the police the only recourse is education.... one of the fisheries local to me (Newlands Hall) had a lot of problems with EE's taking fish for the pot... it now has signage in 5 different EE languages stating that taking for the pot is not tolerated and will prosecute if you are caught doing so... it has also stepped up it's bailiff patrolls on the strength of it's rules.... maybe this is the way all fisheries wanting to protect their stocks should go.....

But.... as a case in point, a local syndicate bailiff was removing a multi-hooked/baited long line from one of their waters and was confronted with a knife wielding EE.... the 410 poacher's shotgun the bailiff carried convinced the chap that it wasn't a route he would want to take.... one disgruntled EE, last seen, (sans knife and long line) running towards Ingatestone at a rate of knots

There are EE anglers who genuinely want to fish legitimately.... there are some who don't.... but while the courts and plod don't want to know, then it's up to us how we deal with them..... education, or show of force...? or possibly a combination of both....:wh

 

[thecrow]

If a water is able to up there bailiff patrols great, it would soon get round that it was happening, how do you do that on a river?

The only education they need is knowing if by any slim chance they are caught they will be deported, they already know its wrong, some think its their right so what else any education would be I have no idea.

I was threatened by 3 EEs when I lived in Lincolnshire because I wouldn't give them a Pike I had caught, two of my sons and a large Bull Terrier proved to be enough for them to change their minds, others have not been so lucky with one bailiff in Burton being stabbed.

As I said before their only fish aint they, if it was otters the public outcry would force the authorities to do something.

 

[arthur2sheds]

Perhaps a rumour should be started that EE's eat Otters Puppies and Kittens then....!

 

[nicepix]

given the lack of teeth in the courts and the lack of interest by the police the only recourse is education.... one of the fisheries local to me (Newlands Hall) had a lot of problems with EE's taking fish for the pot... it now has signage in 5 different EE languages stating that taking for the pot is not tolerated and will prosecute if you are caught doing so... it has also stepped up it's bailiff patrolls on the strength of it's rules.... maybe this is the way all fisheries wanting to protect their stocks should go.....

But.... as a case in point, a local syndicate bailiff was removing a multi-hooked/baited long line from one of their waters and was confronted with a knife wielding EE.... the 410 poacher's shotgun the bailiff carried convinced the chap that it wasn't a route he would want to take.... one disgruntled EE, last seen, (sans knife and long line) running towards Ingatestone at a rate of knots

There are EE anglers who genuinely want to fish legitimately.... there are some who don't.... but while the courts and plod don't want to know, then it's up to us how we deal with them..... education, or show of force...? or possibly a combination of both....:wh

I disagree. It is the person's responsibility to ensure that they act within the law. Education is a cop out. Won't change a thing.

The real problem is that the Criminal Justice System isn't working.

 

[andrew duffield]

Ok southern London guardian reader posting yes I agree and in a perfect world this would not happen but my river lea has survived 300 years of pollution!!
Ok and by the way our police have enough to do what is more important a few fish or every beamer or merc driver on their phone breaking the law and risking injury sorry to racist honest I like the Germans!!

 

[Poshpaul (Angling Trust and PaSC)]

I didn't realise that Israel was part of Eastern Europe, I know that tectonic plates move but that far?

Now now Crow you do yourself an injustice....I am sure you'll recall (not from life obviously but from History books)...that Asia stretched to the gates of Vienna in more than one epoch....and those Crusaders ...I suppose you could say that Israel was part of Western Europe ....briefly

 

[laguna]

Isn't this a little out of proportion, how many EE out of say 10 respect the law and practice catch and release?

Just how big a problem is it?

 

[thecrow]

Now now Crow you do yourself an injustice....I am sure you'll recall (not from life obviously but from History books)...that Asia stretched to the gates of Vienna in more than one epoch....and those Crusaders ...I suppose you could say that Israel was part of Western Europe ....briefly

You do know crows cant read don't you?

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

Isn't this a little out of proportion, how many EE out of say 10 respect the law and practice catch and release?

Just how big a problem is it?

That's one of the problems, nobody knows despite what one bailiff will tell you because the authorities are not interested, lip service is being paid to the trust with the home office code, any law that cannot/ will not be policed isn't worth the paper its written on.