How do we deal will the itinerate traveller issues on our fisheries???

[Alan Whitty]

If you have seen my post on Saturday's fishing trip,I would like to ask how our legal system can deal with these people,they poach the water in question,they trespass,they use bird lime to catch goldfinches,but don't give a fig about killing by-catch,they use intimidatory behaviour against anyone and everyone,all members are told to call the police and say you think they are stealing fish,which supposedly demands response these days,if trespass laws have no balls and fishing without a permit holds no real punishment either,why do any of us pay our club tickets and stick our fingers up at landowners like pikies do... I take it this thread might be be picked on as one that some might run up the prejudicial route,people who have this point of view have obviously never seen these people in action and the rubbish they get up to(and leave behind)....

 

[mikench]

Why do the “ travelling community” demand a permanent site and winge they are discriminated against? I thought the clue was in their name. I cannot comment about their attitude to fishing but have had many unpleasant experiences with them professionally . They only understand retribution in kind. Years ago a client bought a 6 acre site for redevelopment. Its was cleared terraced housing stock compulsorily purchased and demolished by the Council. What few streets were left were the subject of street closure orders and just one roadway served the site and this was uneven cobbles. The roadway was fenced off and locked. Gypsies broke the gates and set up on the site with about 5 caravans of the large continental variety( Hobby) of touring caravan preferred by them. My client and a few employees approached them to offer them the opportunity to stay as long as they liked provided they left the site as they had found it ie clear of rubbish, excrement and discarded junk.
They were met with a torrent of foul abuse and threats. In short my client spent 10k on getting an injunction backed by a power of arrest. The Gypsies left the site on the day the notice expired. I was present and could not believe the state of the site. These people were worse than animals. The site was littered with dirty nappies, broken furniture and other rubbish they had offered to take away for someone but just dumped. They had even emptied their chemical toilets on the land. Photos were taken of the Gypsies and their vehicles. It turned out the 4x4’s were untaxed and uninsured and some vans were stolen. The police were not interested .
A year or so later they turned up again and were identifiable by the vehicles and vans. This time my client arranged for 6 dumper trucks each carrying 20 tonnes of hardcore to drop their cargoes on site with the last two loads to be dropped on the roadway. The Gypsies were blocked in and left in no doubt what might happen if they remained. They left the next morning after much excavation and never came back. Nobody could believe how obnoxious the Gypsies were and why they had spurned the offer made.
They are clearly not all like that but in my experience above and since, they are. They pay no taxes, have no address and are almost untouchable by legal means Alan. You draw your own conclusions.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Alan, Trespass in England is not a criminal offense but a civil one. In fact the Police are not empowered to act.

The costs of bringing a case against itinerant people will far outweigh and y remedy that may be granted in your, or the club’s favor.

 

[@Clive]

If the authorities worked together then the problem would be much reduced. As soon as they make camp there should be a delegation from the police, education, HMRC and DSS to 'help' them arrange to get their children into school, register for any benefits, check out the taxation situation on the companies referred to on the sign written vans and check the legality of any vehicles on site. They would be gone within 24 hours.

Unfortunately the ACPO guidelines on these people is deliberately mis interpreted because senior police officers do not want their career prospects ruined by complaints of prejudice in the same way they ignored the Asian sex scandal situations. It is the same in local authorities.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Yes,I understand that Peter,but our governments should have made it an offence that is arrest able,to cover these urchins and add to the powers of those being affected,this particular club water and the land owners wo own the property along its banks are being continually bombarded by these horrors,with no real protection from the law,its a joke and no mistake,imagine if the ponies came down to drink and got those sticks stuck up their noses,or mouths,they don't care for anyone or anything,in fact their rule is what is yours,is mine...

 

[Borderline]

a group forced their way onto Barlow fisheries about 4 years ago with their caravans, blocking the fishery site vans, and then had the nerve to go fishing in the ponds.

 

[Borderline]

if their vehicles are untaxed seize the lot, tow their caravans to the nearest waste ground and leave them to it.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Ahhhh,but that would be illegal....

 

[peterjg]

They just don't care, they do whatever they want, they really are beyond the law.

 

[John Aston]

I really don't like lynch mobs . I , too have worked with a number of gypsy groups and found the reality to be a little more nuanced than the usual rhetoric suggests .

Some individuals lived down to the stereotype - aggressive ,untrustworthy and potentially violent. I had to cut one meeting short as the traveller grapevine had picked up that a chap with a gun was heading our way . And who said being a public sector legal beagle was dull? But others - women especially - were smart, decent and likable people who just wanted a quiet life .

I too can be enraged by some of the bad behaviour and criminality and I'd never condone or justify it. But neither can I ever justify hatred of the whole of any ethnic group - it has horrific precedents .

 

[markcw]

About 4 or 5 years years ago some rocked up at a village in Essex ,
Pilfered in the local shops , got drunk in the pubs , Police not interested .
The locals got rid of them , Ball bearings and high powered catapults in the night , not many windows left in the vans or vehicles . They left the next day .
On the other side of the coin , a farmer in Lymm let some stay on his land as long as it was cleaned up when they left . Because they were looking for somewhere to stay while going to an anniversary .
No trouble in the pubs, and the shops were happy to serve them .
They cleared up when they were leaving and a few helped on his farm .
They came down each year for a couple of years after that and were always made to feel welcome .

 

[@Clive]

The thing I discovered John is that they are like chameleons. When they want something they can be quite charming. I on the other hand mostly came across them in their other side of their character and that is not pleasant.

I understand what your last sentence is referring to. We have however to ask how they acquired that notoriety?

 

[Alan Whitty]

They live on the edge of legality,always looking to steal,do substandard work,poach,I can think of little of any use they do,for anybody but themselves,they would lie through their teeth to protect a traveller who murdered someone...and they have,they leave sh1t and corruption wherever they pitch up,I knew someone would rock up and sing their praises,lovely people eh???

 

[Keith M]

We had them turn up and park their caravans (and their other vans) in our car park at work once and non of our workers could park their cars; plus they broke into a couple of our temporary portacabins and shat everywhere. One of our staff caught some of their kids shatting on the floor in a locked portacabin once, and when confronted they just picked up some of their shat in their hands and threw it at him.

Nice way to bring up your kids isn’t it!

My car was broken into and stolen too. And found a month or two later by police near Cambridge who said it was being used by travellers who were intimidating pub owners with pickaxe handles and my car was recovered after a police chase using stingers to stop it; resulting in it being a write off.

According to a program about travellers in the UK; Half of them have houses to go back to in Ireland anyway, but choose to wander around in their caravans causing bad blood everywhere during the warmer months.

As far as I’m concerned they are not worth the crap that they walk on

The days of the real travellers travelling around looking for legitimate work has long long gone.
There may still be a few left but unfortunately they seem to be vastly outnumbered by the trouble makers..

Keith

 

[Borderline]

years ago I managed a small electronics factory on an industrial estate. 3 caravans poled up on the grass at the entrance to the estate and from then until the day they left they stole the bloody milk we had left by the milkman every sodding day.
the fact that it was a pint of milk seems trivial, but that's the point, they could easily afford it they were just too criminally inclined to go to the shop 50 yards away and buy some, so muggins here had to buy extra on the way to work otherwise there would be no brew.
and an electronics factory marches on its brews!

 

[mikench]

And that notoriety is prevalent not only here but throughout Europe and it’s not exaggerated. Thankfully there are many more people to like and admire.

 

[markcw]

A few years ago about 4 or 5 vans parked on Morrisons car park in Warrington , They were there a few weeks , Using the toilets to wash etc, Security was doubled on the doors , self service checkouts stopped .
I was walking past across the car park to come out at the swing bridge into Stockton heath .
I noticed a couple of cables coming from the vans to the car wash junction box , they had piped into that .
I informed the petrol station , next few minutes when a car had finished at the washes , they were turned off .
Surprisingly when they left all the rubbish was in bin bags and stacked neatly ,
The woman I knew in the garage and also knew the manager ,said apart from using their electricity, they seemed ok .
There is a small traveller site at Walton in Warrington , over the years they took a couple of liberties over planning permission, Again they are ok .
I think they have been there that long they must have a word with any that rock up near to them to behave so they don't get tarnished by them .
Yet when some rock up on the other side of town it's a different matter , rubbish left , residents wary of them etc .
My ex next-door neighbour is Irish ,she still has family over there . She said the same as Keith M a lot of them have houses in Ireland ,and those in villages near her family are large houses worth a few quid .

 

[Kevin aka Aethelbald]

Alan, Trespass in England is not a criminal offense but a civil one. In fact the Police are not empowered to act.

That's true, but to put this into the context of fishing - doing so without permission (or a permit) is a criminal act under Schedule 1 of the Theft Act, 1968. That certainly is a matter for the police. Also, water bailiffs carry warrants and have the same powers of arrest as police. They can enter property, check rod licences and arrest people.

Whether or not a water bailiff will challenge a traveller (and if the police can be bothered) is another matter, but one of my local bailiffs on the Avon has no problem with them - not sure of his history, but apparently they are all sh1t scared of him. I carry his card/mobile number at all times!
.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

That's true, but to put this into the context of fishing - doing so without permission (or a permit) is a criminal act under Schedule 1 of the Theft Act, 1968. That certainly is a matter for the police. Also, water bailiffs carry warrants and have the same powers of arrest as police. They can enter property, check rod licences and arrest.

Don’t confuse official EA Water Bailiffs with a club bailiff. There are about 70 of those for the entire country.

 

[Keith Williams]

That's true, but to put this into the context of fishing - doing so without permission (or a permit) is a criminal act under Schedule 1 of the Theft Act, 1968. That certainly is a matter for the police. Also, water bailiffs carry warrants and have the same powers of arrest as police. They can enter property, check rod licences and arrest people.

Whether or not a water bailiff will challenge a traveller (and if the police can be bothered) is another matter, but one of my local bailiffs on the Avon has no problem with them - not sure of his history, but apparently they are all sh1t scared of him. I carry his card/mobile number at all times!
.

I have to correct you regarding the Powers of Water Bailiffs ( EA Fishery Enforcement Officers) under the Salmon & Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975.
Such Officers only have powers of arrest as to dealing with anyone who commits an " Arrestable Offence" within the meaning of the Act as they are deemed Constables for the purpose acting in accordance with the relevant sections where offences are Arrestable.
The Theft of Fish is not a matter they are authorised to act upon.
The powers granted come from Section 36 of SFFA 1975 which states :

36. — (1) A water bailiff and a person appointed by the Minister shall be deemed to be a constable for the purpose of the enforcement of this Act, or any order or byelaw under it, and to have all
the same powers and privileges, and be subject to the same liabilities as a constable duly appointed has or is subject to by virtue of the common law or of any statute.

(2) The production by a water bailiff or a person appointed by the Minister of evidence of his appointment shall be a sufficient warrant for him exercising the powers conferred on him by this Act.

(3) A police constable whose services are provided under paragraph 39(l)(c) of Schedule 3 below shall have all the powers and privileges of a water bailiff.

I might add that the question of a Water Bailiffs Powers were noted on the Parliamentary reports of Hansard which commented thus:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1985-11-20/debates/db293645-48cf-4fc3-942c-676e00e22536/Bailiff(PowersOfArrest)

I hope this clears up any doubts amongst those that might want to argue differently on a bankside.