One rod or two rods for barbel

[Steve Arnold]

Ageing populations that dwindle leaving a few large fish that & are hammered day and night by angling pressure until they evetually die.

This is why trying to draw conclusions about normal or typical Barbel behaviour from pressured UK rivers is only seeing one small part of a much bigger picture. Outside that bubble you generally wont need to worry about whether 10 baits is too many or mess around with fussy rigs because the Barbel will gobble up pretty much whatever you chuck in front of them. On pressured rivers your probably as much competing against other anglers as you are the fish.

My experience of barbel on a natural, prolific barbel river is that they will find a bait whatever you do or don't do. Give them the smell of something that takes their fancy and they are very efficient at finding the bait.

In most of my local river swims I think the barbel shoals move up and down a favored stretch several times a day, the shoal is usually well spread out. You can fish one rod downstream and one upstream but when one rod gets a take there is an excellent chance the other will go shortly after.

These days I often fish one bait where I expect barbel and a second rod explores an "unlikely" spot. Often the bigger fish are loners in the less fancied part of the swim.

Maybe that is why carp anglers here tend to despise the barbel? Barbel are quite easy to catch and spoil the carp anglers chances.

Suits me, barbel are numerous enough here that I get some sport often enough to be content. By fishing bigger baits I catch a number of better sized barbel, the carp get a look in often enough as well!

 

[Alan Whitty]

In the UK most barbel are pressured, in fact most quality fish are pressured, in one way or another, I'm afraid the only time barbel throw themselves on the hook is when there is an artificially high population on the stretch,the H.Avon had what would be a normal population and catches were normally between one and four fish and my assumption would be between eight and twenty barbel competing...

 

[Philip]

Its worth noting that unpressured does not automatically mean easy to catch.

While that can sometimes be the case it also means your faced with a different set of problems and fish wont be just throwing themselves on the hook if you dont put some care into it.

For example unpressured fish wont associate anglers with food & natural caution kicks in. Things that could attract fish on pressured venues (splash of a feeder or badoosh of a spomb) probably wont help your chances on little fished venues. Your also faced with far more natural rather than artificiallty boosted stocks and alot less information to guide you on where to find them.

In many cases it also (contary to popular opinion) means you have to accept a lower general size of fish. Barbel are a great example..doubles being common place in the UK now but try and catch a double across the channel and you could be trying for a long time.

 

[@Clive]

I echo Philip's comments above.

In the last few years before moving to France I did most of my coarse fishing on largely overlooked and free to fish waters. That, and fly-fishing for coarse fish helped enormously to come to terms with fish that have never seen an angler's bait. It is a totally different challenge.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Aren't most of the barbel in France a smaller species of barbel???

 

[Philip]

No.

There are two main species present but the English version (Barbus Barbus) is very widepsread and common.

The smaller species you are talking about is the mediterranean barbel which becomes more common the further south you go. I have yet to catch one above the Loire which basically runs across the middle of France. They are a different species and are pretty easy to identify.

As you will see from the photos of Clive and Steve who lives furthest south down on the River Lot they are catching plenty of Barbus Barbus as are all the Barbel I catch up north. Doubles are very rare.

Worth noting I have also caught Barbus Barbus from tiny Trout streams up in the Italien Alps, rivers that were once the domain of the Meriterranean Barbel. However I have noticed in recent years now the English version has arrived there is a decline in the other species. It does make me wonder if the English version is pushing out the other a bit like Grey Squirrels pushing out red ones but of course thats just my personal opinion.

 

[Alan Whitty]

I think it had an adverse affect on chub and roach stocks on the Severn when they were on the march back in the day, Stuart Williams the owner of Bridge Tackle back then hated barbel...

 

[@Clive]

No.

There are two main species present but the English version (Barbus Barbus) is very widepsread and common.

The smaller species you are talking about is the mediterranean barbel which becomes more common the further south you go. I have yet to catch one above the Loire which basically runs across the middle of France. They are a different species and are pretty easy to identify.

As you will see from the photos of Clive and Steve who lives furthest south down on the River Lot they are catching plenty of Barbus Barbus as are all the Barbel I catch up north. Doubles are very rare.

Worth noting I have also caught Barbus Barbus from tiny Trout streams up in the Italien Alps, rivers that were once the domain of the Meriterranean Barbel. However I have noticed in recent years now the English version has arrived there is a decline in the other species. It does make me wonder if the English version is pushing out the other a bit like Grey Squirrels pushing out red ones but of course thats just my personal opinion.

Last year I encountered barbus barbus in a northern Spanish river that should only hold the Ebro Barbel. It is thought that barbus barbus along with roach, rudd, bream and other species are being brought down by Dutch and German anglers to use as live baits for catfish. At the end of their stay they tip any unused fish in the river. It has become a big issue for the Spanish authorities.

 

[Alan Whitty]

It amazes me that any survive when some anglers like to suggest the cats are wiping out the carp, which the Ebro was teeming with, nowadays the carp tend to be quite large, the roach supposedly are quite numerous l, but from what I here the shoals are huge and spread out with individual fish to over 3lbs being caught, bite size for a hundred pound catfish surely? Also I think I heard that cats aren't indigenous on the Ebro....

 

[@Clive]

15 species in the ebro are non-indeginous and catfish are one of them. They are thought to have been illegally introduced by anglers. Some of these species are out performing native species and causing their decline.

Edit; https://www.iberianature.com/material/spaininvasivefish.htm

 

[Philip]

Last year I encountered barbus barbus in a northern Spanish river that should only hold the Ebro Barbel. It is thought that barbus barbus along with roach, rudd, bream and other species are being brought down by Dutch and German anglers to use as live baits for catfish. At the end of their stay they tip any unused fish in the river. It has become a big issue for the Spanish authorities.

Barbus Barbus seems to be spreading on the continent. I have watched them become established on a number of rivers I fish.

Its been interesting to see whats happend in the Uk where there seems to be a decline on many rivers after a boom & I wonder if something similar will happen eventually elsewhere too.

 

[@Clive]

It isn't the case in England yet, but in continental rivers I am convinced that the number of large barbel is being reduced by the numbers of catfish present. In the places on my local rivers where I would expect larger barbel to inhabit based on my UK experience, I usually find large catfish in residence. It is perfectly exampled in this video:

 

[flightliner]

It isn't the case in England yet, but in continental rivers I am convinced that the number of large barbel is being reduced by the numbers of catfish present. In the places on my local rivers where I would expect larger barbel to inhabit based on my UK experience, I usually find large catfish in residence. It is perfectly exampled in this video:

If i were ever to find myself connected to one of those cats on a regular basis Clive I think I'd pack in fishing!

 

[@Clive]

I manage to avoid them for the most part Flight'. In October and March / April they rove around a bit and that is when I tend to get the scorched thumb syndrome. When I fish specifically for them I use an Okuma Trent that has a powerful disc drag, but when they turn up unannounced and you've got something like a Speedia on it is impossible to brake the reel. Better to clamp down and let the hook link break.

Because the banks I fish are steep and up to 5 feet above the water, often undermined, it is impossible to land them using a net. In the boat I just put my pliers on the hook and wriggle it out. The fish doesn't need to be brought aboard. When the banks are low enough it is possible to drag them out by the mouth. You get grazed finger tips, but nothing serious. I don't like them and cannot get enthusiastic enough to fish for them more than a couple of times a year at most.

 

[Badgerale]

15 species in the ebro are non-indeginous and catfish are one of them. They are thought to have been illegally introduced by anglers. Some of these species are out performing native species and causing their decline.

Edit; https://www.iberianature.com/material/spaininvasivefish.htm

And carp are another, which makes the shock horror of carpists a bit laughable.

 

[@Clive]

It isn't the case in England yet, but in continental rivers I am convinced that the number of large barbel is being reduced by the numbers of catfish present. In the places on my local rivers where I would expect larger barbel to inhabit based on my UK experience, I usually find large catfish in residence. It is perfectly exampled in this video:

I have spent the last 11 years trying to find large barbel in France. Anything above 5lb is a specimen out here and if you fished normal English methods you would probally catch dozens of 2lb barbel and the odd one over 4lb. A German angler who lives in France told me that he had caught over 400 barbel in France and never had a fish of 6lb. I have travelled thousands of kilometers, reccied hundreds of swims and fished half a dozen rivers. So far I have had three barbel that were just a few ounces over 9lb and not seen anything any bigger.

Today I took the dog for a walk on a local stretch of the Vienne near to where I had one of my 9lb barbel from the upper part about 6 years ago. During the regular dog walks I spend a lot of time standing and watching the river for that golden flash of a barbel's flank. Other than a few small fish the only one of note is what I have called The Lonesome Barbel that inhabits an area where a herd of grey carp visit to feed. It is around 6lb, much smaller than the carp. Much of that stretch is very shallow. Under 2 foot in most places and only 3 foot at the deepest parts. It is weedy, boulder strewn and inacessible due to a sheer 10 foot or more drop to the water in the few places where you can actually get past the trees and bushes. Today, I had the urge to look over a wall that I have never bothered with before. There is no point. You can't access the river there or within 50 metres either side and then only with the use of a rope. Anyway, I looked over the wall. About 12 feet below me in just enough water to cover their backs were not one, not two, but seven barbel, none of them under 8lb. There might have been more out of sight under the branches. The nearest one to the bank looked like a good double.

They were side by side, some nose to tail in an area half the size of a dining table just downstream of the branches of an overhanging tree. They are protected from herons, cormarants, catfish and me. No night fishing, no chance of getting a boat in the water or stalking them from upstream. And if you got in below them the tree prevents any casting beyond them. And it is a five mile walk round trip so baiting them away from cover isn't feasible except during the dog walks, about 3 times a week.

Bah!

 

[Alan Whitty]

And who says barbel are easy to catch, all fish soon get to know where they don't get fished for and move in and that's in spite of all that quality grub we throw in for them....

 

[Badgerale]

I have spent the last 11 years trying to find large barbel in France. Anything above 5lb is a specimen out here and if you fished normal English methods you would probally catch dozens of 2lb barbel and the odd one over 4lb. A German angler who lives in France told me that he had caught over 400 barbel in France and never had a fish of 6lb. I have travelled thousands of kilometers, reccied hundreds of swims and fished half a dozen rivers. So far I have had three barbel that were just a few ounces over 9lb and not seen anything any bigger.

Today I took the dog for a walk on a local stretch of the Vienne near to where I had one of my 9lb barbel from the upper part about 6 years ago. During the regular dog walks I spend a lot of time standing and watching the river for that golden flash of a barbel's flank. Other than a few small fish the only one of note is what I have called The Lonesome Barbel that inhabits an area where a herd of grey carp visit to feed. It is around 6lb, much smaller than the carp. Much of that stretch is very shallow. Under 2 foot in most places and only 3 foot at the deepest parts. It is weedy, boulder strewn and inacessible due to a sheer 10 foot or more drop to the water in the few places where you can actually get past the trees and bushes. Today, I had the urge to look over a wall that I have never bothered with before. There is no point. You can't access the river there or within 50 metres either side and then only with the use of a rope. Anyway, I looked over the wall. About 12 feet below me in just enough water to cover their backs were not one, not two, but seven barbel, none of them under 8lb. There might have been more out of sight under the branches. The nearest one to the bank looked like a good double.

They were side by side, some nose to tail in an area half the size of a dining table just downstream of the branches of an overhanging tree. They are protected from herons, cormarants, catfish and me. No night fishing, no chance of getting a boat in the water or stalking them from upstream. And if you got in below them the tree prevents any casting beyond them. And it is a five mile walk round trip so baiting them away from cover isn't feasible except during the dog walks, about 3 times a week.

Bah!

I wonder if some populations of fish simply aren't genetically going to get big compared to the same species elsewhere.

For example the perch in the Netherlands get to over 8lb. The UK record is 6lb 3oz.

Sure, it could be about habitat... but in the whole of the UK you would think there would be somewhere that approximates Dutch conditions.

 

[@Clive]

And who says barbel are easy to catch, all fish soon get to know where they don't get fished for and move in and that's in spite of all thar quality grub we throw in for them....

These fish are in a 1.5 mile stretch between weirs where there are literally no anglers other than myself. It is wide, shallow and very fast flowing. They will never have experienced bait or any angling pressure. I think that they will have lived so long because the big catfish will not inhabit those conditions and it is too shallow and fast for cormorants. Also, there are no otters for 200 miles. It is pretty uncommon in my experience for a group of 6lb+ fish to be found. I have only ever seen them in 1's and 2's at that size.

Badgerdale; the massive low lying lakes of the Netherlands are like nothing in the UK.

 

[Philip]

I think genetics will always play a part in how big fish can grow...some will just grow bigger than others in the same place but I think enviroment has a huge say as well as "outside" influences such as anglers baits and predation (or lack of) the fish may be under.

Stick a good quality stock of fish in a rich enviorment and leave them alone without any predation or angling pressures and chances are they will grow very big. Redmire is probably a good example.