Otter Damage... Awful!

[reeds]

I know what you mean, it's not nice to see, but that's just what nature does.

I caught a trout while trotting a Thames tributary that had narrowly escaped being dinner, also probably by an otter, and it was a state - large open wounds everywhere and still badly bleeding. I was amazed that it was still feeding and that it fought so hard when hooked. I put it back and wished it luck, that's all you can do really.

I've had many chub with fin damage and missing scales, almost certainly otters.

It's a cruel world out there and as angling gets more and more artificial, nature can seem rather horrible, especially when it comes to predation of large fish. We've had many decades of relatively few otters but they've recovered and reclaimed their waterways (NOT through mass reintroductions, they had a small localised helping hand in the late 90s); we need to accept that and acknowledge that when we fish for fun, we are popping into their world (and every other creature that ears fish, including fish!) where they fish to survive.

Fish only exist to reproduce and to be eaten. We are privileged to occasionally make their acquaintance but nothing more.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Fewer than 100 otters were introduced in the late 90s, none since.

I seem to remember another member on here a few weeks ago stating that the "official" figures for "roadkill otters" last year was over 1800 . . . . . . .

Even if the original reintroduction was only 100 (I seem to remember 118 for some reason) then the 1800 roadkill number is an indication of how prolific these creatures are at breeding.

 

[bennygesserit]

I seem to remember another member on here a few weeks ago stating that the "official" figures for "roadkill otters" last year was over 1800 . . . . . . .

Even if the original reintroduction was only 100 (I seem to remember 118 for some reason) then the 1800 roadkill number is an indication of how prolific these creatures are at breeding.

Do you have anything official that 1800 were roadkilled last year ?

I know I will never convince you that otters are breeding like rabbits but do you have the same view of Zander ? Its a trick question obviously but if you believe in predator prey balance with Zanders then surely the same applies to otters.

 

[Paul Boote]

Plus, of course, in addition to their ever-growing Seven Nation Army -

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3404734976/hA0AC747F/

 

[Judas Priest]

Benny
I agree that if man kept his or her nose out and stooped interfering then nature could/can balance itself out. On a water I fish the landowner stopped the Otter Trust placing any captive bred animals. Unbeknown to the OT we already have a family of Otters that have been there for generations and we have a fantastic mixed fishery with plenty of differing year classes of all species.
It's when amateurish dogooders get involved that the problems start, and I'm not just on about the fluffy bunny brigade but also anglers who put alien species into waters where they are neither wanted nor needed, it takes nature years to achieve a balance again only for the same idiots to turn up and release more alien species to top up a so called "dwindling stock".

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Do you have anything official that 1800 were roadkilled last year ?

I know I will never convince you that otters are breeding like rabbits but do you have the same view of Zander ? Its a trick question obviously but if you believe in predator prey balance with Zanders then surely the same applies to otters.

Benny,

Only that I seem to remember TBO (Phil) quoting that figure a few weeks back on yet another Otter thread.

Personally, I would have preferred it if the status quo had been maintained and that the Zander had not been introduced, but they have been around for a long time now, so not much we could do about it.

---------- Post added at 11:47 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------

It's when amateurish dogooders get involved that the problems start, and I'm not just on about the fluffy bunny brigade but also anglers who put alien species into waters where they are neither wanted nor needed, it takes nature years to achieve a balance again only for the same idiots to turn up and release more alien species to top up a so called "dwindling stock".

Couldn't have put it better my self . . . . . . . . .

 

[bennygesserit]

Benny
I agree that if man kept his or her nose out and stooped interfering then nature could/can balance itself out. On a water I fish the landowner stopped the Otter Trust placing any captive bred animals. Unbeknown to the OT we already have a family of Otters that have been there for generations and we have a fantastic mixed fishery with plenty of differing year classes of all species.
It's when amateurish dogooders get involved that the problems start, and I'm not just on about the fluffy bunny brigade but also anglers who put alien species into waters where they are neither wanted nor needed, it takes nature years to achieve a balance again only for the same idiots to turn up and release more alien species to top up a so called "dwindling stock".

All true except that massive use of certain pesticides nearly wiped out otters and the balance was upset , not that the balance is actually there in reality anyway , all is chaos , with dynasties of animals rising and falling ad infinitum through history.

But short term and re the introductions in hindsight there was probably no need for it , but I thought it was the actual otters people objected to rather than the fact that a small number were introduced.

---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 ----------

Now what I would love to know and not many pro otter advocates like me will ask is how many otters were being hunted ans killed before the war and did this keep the population artificially low , certainly I have seen a lot of people speak with conviction about the increase in magpies , which were a rarity for me in the sixties , being related to hunting and shooting in rural areas.

 

[sam vimes]

Now what I would love to know and not many pro otter advocates like me will ask is how many otters were being hunted ans killed before the war and did this keep the population artificially low , certainly I have seen a lot of people speak with conviction about the increase in magpies , which were a rarity for me in the sixties , being related to hunting and shooting in rural areas.

Yes, otters were hunted and numbers will have been impacted heavily. In many rural areas there were dedicated packs of otterhounds. Otterhounds being a specific breed of dog. The last working packs lasted into the 1970s, but most folded earlier in the century.

OTTER HUNTING - British Path�

LHM: Lost Otterhound Packs

 

[bennygesserit]

Yes, otters were hunted and numbers will have been impacted heavily. In many rural areas there were dedicated packs of otterhounds. Otterhounds being a specific breed of dog. The last working packs lasted into the 1970s, but most folded earlier in the century.

OTTER HUNTING - British Path�

LHM: Lost Otterhound Packs

That Pathenews looks fantastic - thanks , i'll have a really good look around there !

My view , being a townie , would be that shooting would have accounted for more actual kills than the otter hunt , but thats a purely subjective view.

 

[sam vimes]

That Pathenews looks fantastic - thanks , i'll have a really good look around there !

My view , being a townie , would be that shooting would have accounted for more actual kills than the otter hunt , but thats a purely subjective view.

Talking to the older hunting and shooting types in this area would suggest to me that very few were purposely hunted with rifles or shotguns. Those that were shot were more likely to have been chance encounters when other quarry were being sought.

Speaking of chance encounters, and without wishing to steal anyone's thunder, another stretch of river fished and yet another otter encounter. You got to be careful not to trip over the things round here! I'm reasonably happy to see the otters, unlike the two dirty great cormorants in a very dead "sitty" tree right by the river.

 

[Paul Boote]

Yes, at the age of nineteen, in the 1970s, in remotest West Wales, I asked one of the last hunts take their hounds and themselves away from the piece of fine salmon and sea-trout river that I was living beside and looking after for its owner back to the (they admitted to me) otter-less Wye Valley from which they'd come a hundred or more miles away. Bunch of red-faced, heavily spirited-up tweedy hearties from another age of far fewer people, houses, cars and roads and a lot more wildlife in general. Nice to look at, their lovely hounds etc, but some things have their moment then should recognize that that moment is over and bow out graciously and be gone.

 

[bullet]

My local trout river has a good population of otters,I'm reliably told that it probably has It's full natural population. All I can say is it's full of trout,and fishing it you catch brownies from large minnow size right up to 14 inch(1lb 2 oz or so) and a few a bit larger.All fish are in good nick.I think in natural situations they probably play an important part in ecological balance. They may help keep away and possibly kill other fish predators like goosanders for instance. I can see how they might be a problem if they frequently visit a small stocked pond, for instance.

 

[mick b]

I grew up in a hunting shooting fishing family, and if the otterhounds were 'out' time was usually found to be somewhere along the river after the meet.

Altho I often heard and watched otterhounds hunting i never actually saw an otter killed by the pack, unlike foxes of which I have seen more than a dozen.

When out shooting an otter was never seen as a worthy quarry and was never shot at if one was seen, unlike foxes which were always pursued with a vengeance.
I did however see an enormous dog otter, over four feet long, that got itself into a fox snare set quite a way off the river for foxes.

As for hunting otters in hollow trees or bank-side holes with terriers, a mature otter can make a real mess of any terrier, equal or worse than any badger, sometimes retiring the dog prematurely.
The last terrier I saw that had faced an otter was on the upper Ouse (where there was a strong population) in the mid 80s and this dogs very survival was testament to some excellent veterinary work.

The short sighted idiots who shoot otters then leave the bodies on roads are fooling no-one except themselves, its not clever, nor is it a good reflection on anglers.

.

 

[The bad one]

I seem to remember another member on here a few weeks ago stating that the "official" figures for "roadkill otters" last year was over 1800 . . . . . . .

Even if the original reintroduction was only 100 (I seem to remember 118 for some reason) then the 1800 roadkill number is an indication of how prolific these creatures are at breeding.

Oh no I didn't!
This what I said "Road accidents account for 65% of the 1300 carcases Liz Chadwick and Vic Simpson have autopsied over the last 10 years."
The number of roadkill over the 10 years is 845. Equating to 84.5 animals per year ;0)

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Oh no I didn't!
This what I said "Road accidents account for 65% of the 1300 carcases Liz Chadwick and Vic Simpson have autopsied over the last 10 years."
The number of roadkill over the 10 years is 845. Equating to 84.5 animals per year ;0)

Thanks for that Phil, I wasn't completely sure of the number.

It still shows a high figure per annum when compared to the original introduction though.

 

[bennygesserit]

Thanks for that Phil, I wasn't completely sure of the number.

It still shows a high figure per annum when compared to the original introduction though.

Thats like a = b therefore C.
The number of introduced otters were very small as no one understood how many otters were already there , they are very difficult to count as the spraint method in unreliable.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Thats like a = b therefore C.
The number of introduced otters were very small as no one understood how many otters were already there , they are very difficult to count as the spraint method in unreliable.

Which only goes to show how little research was done originally before adding to the population of these voracious apex predators doesn't it?

The reintroduction was ill conceived, poorly researched and done without proper consultation to angling bodies.

No amount of pseudo statistics can change that myopic history.

It was a bad move back then and one which will come back to haunt all anglers at some point.

 

[mick b]

Over a near twenty year period I submitted otter records to the relevant bodies.
These records were of footprints, photographs, remains of dead animals (1 only), and many many personal observations.
Without a doubt there was a strong and established population of otters on the river/s in my area, a fact well known to most of the observant locals and some anglers.

Even though I was on the ground almost every working day I certainly couldnt have given a true figure of exactly how many otters were present at any one time.

Otters are here to stay, they are a protected native animal that was here before we fished and will be present long after we are all forgotten.

BUT please do not be mislead by false statements, otters are NOT voracious, they do not have a huge appitite nor do they eat more food than they require (which is more than can be said for some humans) they catch and eat fish, a purely natural behaviour, nothing more, nothing less.

Could we say the same for our 'harmless' activities?

 

[Peter Jacobs]

BUT please do not be mislead by false statements, otters are NOT voracious, they do not have a huge appitite

. . . not sure of your dictionary Mick, but mine says:

voracious
vəˈreɪʃəs/
adjective

adjective: voracious

1. 1.
   wanting or devouring great quantities of food.
   
   "a voracious appetite"
   synonyms:insatiable, unquenchable, unappeasable, prodigious, uncontrollable, uncontrolled, omnivorous, compulsive, gluttonous, greedy, rapacious; More
   
   
   
   

So it was hardly a falacious argument . . . . . . . . but not worth arguing over semantics

 

[bennygesserit]

Which only goes to show how little research was done originally before adding to the population of these voracious apex predators doesn't it?

The reintroduction was ill conceived, poorly researched and done without proper consultation to angling bodies.

No amount of pseudo statistics can change that myopic history.

It was a bad move back then and one which will come back to haunt all anglers at some point.

Peter my point being that only a tiny number 117 were reintroduced so I have no idea why everyone keeps saying "it was ill advised to introduce an apex predator" ( not quoting you Peter ) the introduced numbers were so small as to not make any difference , that is why they were stopped.

Ok if you want an otter cull fair enough but to bang on about the reintroduction being the reason there are so many seems to be fallacious.

adjective: Fallacious

1. 1.
   just plain wrong