Otter Damage... Awful!

[no-one in particular]

Anglers are their own worst enemy.
All we need to do is buy the waters we fish, not pay rent forever.
Game anglers do it, some private groups do it, why don't we all do it?

Before anyone moans about the cost think about all the thousands you spend on tackle over the years.

As an example, my club (actually a limited company) brought our lake and surrounding woodland with an interest free loan from a few wealthy members which we repaid through increased subscriptions.
We now have appreciating assets and security of tenure -- for ever!

All it needs is a little bit of forward thinking by club committees and some diversion of personal finances for a few years, then when the next whizzo decides to introduce a species you maybe consulted.
Until then you only have the tenants option and if you don't something....move!
.

Couldn't the AT do something like this.?

 

[mick b]

Couldn't the AT do something like this.?

Oh come off it, they couldn't even grasp the processes required to remove that damn seal.
Don't wait for someone to help you.......do it yourselves or suffer the consequences.

Tenants are what most anglers are, its very rare for tenants to be consulted on anything as all official communications are with the Riparian Owner, we only have the waters we fish for a limited number of years, then they are either lost because of some stupid miscreants or someone pays more for than we are prepared to.

Owning your own water gives far more options not available to a tenant.
Apart from the legal requirements my club doesn't have to ask permission from anyone if we want to do something, be it stocking, netting, clearing a tree or swims, installing a commemorative seat, planting a few pretty flowers or allowing the ashes of a deceased member to be laid to rest behind their favourite swim (really nice thought that).

Our lake and surrounding woodland also provide a pleasant walk on a summers evening, almost as enjoyable as the fishing.


But it does take organisation to buy your own water and, for whatever reason, that is what anglers are not good at.

Why?



.

 

[sam vimes]

I know of clubs on the Swale that own their water. I don't believe that they were consulted over otter introductions any more than those that rent. However, why would they be consulted? There was/is no requirement for them to be. The only consultation required is for legal access. A different landowner twenty yards from that agreed access wouldn't need to be consulted any more than one ten miles up or downstream.

Owning water is no bad thing at all. However, renting doesn't always leave you hamstrung with regards to stocking, planting etc.

 

[bennygesserit]

I know of clubs on the Swale that own their water. I don't believe that they were consulted over otter introductions any more than those that rent. However, why would they be consulted? There was/is no requirement for them to be. The only consultation required is for legal access. A different landowner twenty yards from that agreed access wouldn't need to be consulted any more than one ten miles up or downstream.

Owning water is no bad thing at all. However, renting doesn't always leave you hamstrung with regards to stocking, planting etc.

I thought no otters were introduced in that area

 

[binka]

Oh come off it, they couldn't even grasp the processes required to remove that damn seal.
Don't wait for someone to help you.......do it yourselves or suffer the consequences.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it!

In the seal thread you posted...

I maintain that if the AT had been more aware that NE are working on reduced staffing levels, realigned structures and understood the difficulty of finding someone with sufficient knowledge to make a decision on such a specialised subject they would have understood the impossibility of achieving a prompt and favourable response.

Which was met with...

Having read that quote again it begs another question...

If the ATr were aware of, as you put it "the impossibility of achieving a prompt and favourable response" then what is that implying?

That they wouldn't/shouldn't bother in the first place, in which case the ATr get slated for inaction and the failings by NE go unchallenged and unquestioned, whether they be caused by red tape, under qualified staff or whatever?

Which to this day has gone unanswered.

Can you please explain, for the benefit of everyone, how the ATr go about a task that you yourself describe as impossible within a totally separate organisation and how that then gets thrown back and becomes the fault of the ATr?

 

[fishface1]

There is an awful lot of misinformation out there about otters.

I think someone on here was saying that the keepers on the upper Avon catchment were frequently shooting and leaving otters on the roadside.... Another person was talking about "van loads" of otters being delivered to the lower Stour....

There is however, some serious research going on and can be found here:

School of Biosciences

 

[sam vimes]

I thought no otters were introduced in that area

The information I've seen, from those that claim to know, on here and elsewhere, suggests that the Topcliffe area was a release site. I'm just taking that at face value, it may not be true, I wasn't invited. How long they'll have stayed, when there was already an existing population, is anyone's guess.

However, the point I was making, about ownership and consultation, still stands regardless of the river concerned.

 

[bennygesserit]

The information I've seen, from those that claim to know, on here and elsewhere, suggests that the Topcliffe area was a release site. I'm just taking that at face value, it may not be true, I wasn't invited. How long they'll have stayed, when there was already an existing population, is anyone's guess.

However, the point I was making, about ownership and consultation, still stands regardless of the river concerned.

You are correct of course as far as I can tell no one was consulted about the introductions , I think feedback from anglers managed to cease the introductions or at least it was via the UK Otter BAP Steering Group ( from http://www.otter.org/documents/IOSF Otters and Fisheries Conference 2012 Edinburgh.pdf ) but I do agree with your point. I have no idea how dense the introductions were either , I do know that territorial predators will fill a space more quickly if no other of the same species exist there ( one of the reasons badgers recover more quickly after culling ) as long as the seed population is also viable.

So it may be that the introductions accelerated the increase in population faster than even a normal growth rate. Sounds obvious really but you would also get the same effect on the edge of existing otter populations as they spread into "new" territory.

To be honest the introduction has gone now I don't feel we need to be on our guard against further introductions because they introductions are no longer needed , so the lesson has been learned but is no longer relevant. It would take so much effort and probably be illegal , to create enough otters to reintroduce that its simply not worth it.

What is your opinion on why in some areas otter predation seems to be more noticeable than in others , possibly related to areas that have always had otters suffering a less noticeable effect. Something up in the river maybe ? Not enough small fish ?

 

[anglerpaulm]

I if speak with Box nation could we get a Anglers v Pro Otter fight on PPV?

 

[Paul Boote]

Somewhere, way out in the Arizona or New Mexico deserts, there is a covert CIA Otter Breeding Facility, a bunker located deep underground, missile- and whining Modern British Spessie Coarse Fisher-proof, using the Mexican Cartels to bring its thousands-strong output to an unwisely and probably illegally fish-filled water near you. The Grassy Knoll has nothing on these guys.

 

[The bad one]

What is your opinion on why in some areas otter predation seems to be more noticeable than in others , possibly related to areas that have always had otters suffering a less noticeable effect. Something up in the river maybe ? Not enough small fish ?

Within the report you cite lies one of the major reasons Benny
"The point about population fragility is very important. On the River Teifi there are no otters in the upper reaches, because there are no fish, because there are no invertebrates because of the high use of synthetic pyrethrols in agriculture.

Comment: There are a lot of emerging contaminants whose effects are unknown. There is currently work being done on new pharmaceuticals that are entering the ecosystem and whose effects are not known."

 

[elliottwaters]

Sorry guys but in my view there are a lot worse problems impacting on fish stocks than otters, particularly on the rivers, pollution, fish theft, water abstraction and cormorants to name just four.

Leave the otters alone! I’d love to see one.

 

[bennygesserit]

Within the report you cite lies one of the major reasons Benny
"The point about population fragility is very important. On the River Teifi there are no otters in the upper reaches, because there are no fish, because there are no invertebrates because of the high use of synthetic pyrethrols in agriculture.

Comment: There are a lot of emerging contaminants whose effects are unknown. There is currently work being done on new pharmaceuticals that are entering the ecosystem and whose effects are not known."

Yes been a lot of mention about these around the web , is this the entirety of the otter debate ? A healthy river will sustain otters so the only predator you should really fear is the agricultural / pharmecutical and petro chemical one?

Why therefore do I see Matt Hayes banging on every week during 24 hour rod race about otter predation rather than the real problem - pollution

 

[The bad one]

Yes been a lot of mention about these around the web , is this the entirety of the otter debate ? A healthy river will sustain otters so the only predator you should really fear is the agricultural / pharmecutical and petro chemical one?

Why therefore do I see Matt Hayes banging on every week during 24 hour rod race about otter predation rather than the real problem - pollution

Simple answer is he's a thick chunt! He's an angler not a scientist!
Benny in 2000 I wrote an extensive piece for NASA Specialist Angler Mag warning about the perils of this desecrate, bioaccumulation and deadly pollution entering our rivers. Sadly not much has changed and if anything it’s got worse.

 

[sam vimes]

What is your opinion on why in some areas otter predation seems to be more noticeable than in others , possibly related to areas that have always had otters suffering a less noticeable effect. Something up in the river maybe ? Not enough small fish ?

As I mentioned in post 49 (page 5), a lot of it is down to perception. However, there's little doubt in my mind that it's going to be a lot more obvious on a small lowland river with a head of unusually large fish than it is going to be on a northern spate river that's never had huge numbers and never had massive fish (I've got the Great Ouse barbel and the Swale in mind here). The snag is that, while anglers may lay all the woes of the Ouse firmly at the otter's feet, that doesn't necessarily make it so. Abstraction and various kinds of pollution could well be having far greater effect.

 

[jimlad]

Speaking of chance encounters, and without wishing to steal anyone's thunder, another stretch of river fished and yet another otter encounter. You got to be careful not to trip over the things round here! I'm reasonably happy to see the otters, unlike the two dirty great cormorants in a very dead "sitty" tree right by the river.

Interestingly, we were still catching minutes after the said pair of otters playfully swam through the swim.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Paul Boote]

"Interestingly, we were still catching minutes after the said pair of otters playfully swam through the swim."

Experienced this many times on the Welsh rivers, whilst fishing for salmon in daylight and for sea-trout at night (one otter swimming into wadered leg one night).

There was a very old ploy used by salmon fishers when fishing for "potted" salmon (fish lying in numbers in a pool, often in low water, but refusing to take): put an "otter" through the pool - i.e. put your dog in and get it to swim through the pool; this immediately wakes the fish up and quite often gets them taking. Works, too; I have seen it employed successfully on a couple of occasions.

 

[cg74]

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it!

In the seal thread you posted...



Which was met with...



Which to this day has gone unanswered.

Can you please explain, for the benefit of everyone, how the ATr go about a task that you yourself describe as impossible within a totally separate organisation and how that then gets thrown back and becomes the fault of the ATr?

Yes, I wouldn't mind knowing the answer too.