Princes Albert Angling Society

[The bad one]

They would need to be some books maps and keys Ian to make up for the £345 joining fee of one club I know of, that makes it £620 for the first season

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To you maybe

Well crow it is to all, appox 250 waters in the map book all based on OS landranger maps that the club has to pay for to uses under licence to the OS. It make very little when it's paid for the licensing arrangement/agreement per map book to the OS. I'd be very surprised if the club makes, given all the gratis, £20 on the joining fee on top of the subs, which I know pays for the rents on the waters.

 

[thecrow]

Well crow it is to all, appox 250 waters in the map book all based on OS landranger maps that the club has to pay for to uses under licence to the OS. It make very little when it's paid for the licensing arrangement/agreement per map book to the OS. I'd be very surprised if the club makes, given all the gratis, £20 on the joining fee on top of the subs, which I know pays for the rents on the waters.

Phil, if others can afford to pay and are willing to pay it fine its down to the individual, what I will never understand is the amount that some clubs charge as a "joining fee" just 3 that I know of £ 100, £240, £345. I just cannot believe that maps, keys e.t.c. can come to that amount, if the club needs the extra funds to pay for waters imo the fees should reflect that.

Of all the syndicates I have belonged to none have ever charged a joining fee same with clubs, if some can do it why not others?

 

[sam vimes]

Phil, if others can afford to pay and are willing to pay it fine its down to the individual, what I will never understand is the amount that some clubs charge as a "joining fee" just 3 that I know of £ 100, £240, £345. I just cannot believe that maps, keys e.t.c. can come to that amount, if the club needs the extra funds to pay for waters imo the fees should reflect that.

I would very much doubt that a load of maps and some keys would amount to hundreds of pounds worth either. The likes of PAAS, with their huge portfolio of waters, might be something of an exception.

However, I have thought of something else that joining fees might also help contribute to, something that you might have less objection to, concessions. That might be concessions to pensioners, kids, disabled or unemployed. Plenty of clubs still seem to think that they should offer concessions, despite the fact that their incomes are being hit by the increasing demographic shifts. You aren't as likely to get concessions from the more commercial operations. The more people act like customers, and treat club tickets as a purchased service, the less likely that concessions will exist in the future. There's no decent commercial reason for concessions to exist, except in the case of juniors.

There is another prospect. The clubs with joining fees might actually wish to put off the likes of you and I that don't like paying them. It certainly ensures that only the most committed join. They may well see joining fees as succeeding in their intentions. The only way to know for sure is to quiz the committee of the club concerned. However, in some instances, you may actually find it's simply a case of "we've always had a joining fee". Such is the way of committe driven entities with longstanding constitutions.

Of all the syndicates I have belonged to none have ever charged a joining fee same with clubs, if some can do it why not others?

Were they genuine non-profit syndicates? There are a hell of a lot of syndicates that aren't really what they purport to be. People can, and do, make livings out of them. I'd not expect to see that type of syndicate have a joining fee. If clubs or syndicates don't have joining fees, it's simply a case of them not being right for their aims or ethos. What may work for some won't work for all. Some clubs and syndicates may have no issues with member retention and may have waiting lists a mile long if they do. That probably isn't the case with the majority of clubs though.

Here's a modern phenomena for you. What do you think of commercial waters having a membership scheme? You have to pay a joining fee before you are allowed to pay for day tickets. I know of two carp lakes operating in this way. One is Pool Bridge Farm Q Lake. The other is Eric's, which due to the size of the water, reputation, and size of the fish, is a proportionally higher price.

 

[mikench]

You make valid points Sam! It remains to be seen how I get on with their waters( i did not have an auspicious start) and whether I feel that membership is worthwhile. The club do give concessions particularly to juniors which they actively encourage and the joining fee has not put off either the current 10,000 members or the 3,000 on the waiting list.

Watch this space this time next year

 

[thecrow]

That might be concessions to pensioners, kids, disabled or unemployed. Plenty of clubs still seem to think that they should offer concessions,

Although I would agree with some anglers being given a concession I wouldn't agree that all those perceived to have a certain standard of living should receive one.

As far as I can see from PAAS website there are 2 concessions, one being a reduction in fees for OAPs who have 5 years continuous membership at the time they reach pension age. The other is for those who are between the ages of 16 to 18 where the membership fee is £50 while the "joining fee" is also £50 while the adult "joining fee" is £20 less than the annual fee of £120.

Another club charge twice the annual fee as a joining fee meaning each £10 rise in the annual fee results in an increase of £20 on the joining fee, strange? on the other hand this club offer free membership to all under 16s as long as they are accompanied by an adult member, a move that I feel is to be applauded as encouraging youngsters into the sport.

The club that charges £345 joining fee has no concessions at all.

Were they genuine non-profit syndicates?

Yes I was secretary of one of them, run by the anglers for the anglers and every member had an input if they were that way inclined. none had a joining fee although the fees did have to increase at times to cover the rent of the water, tools, insurance e.t.c.

Here's a modern phenomena for you. What do you think of commercial waters having a membership scheme? You have to pay a joining fee before you are allowed to pay for day tickets.

Yes I have seen some of those type of waters advertised, the answer for me really is the same as the one about joining fees, if an angler can afford to pay and wants to pay fine its down to them, me never its tantamount to paying to get into Asda (or Aldi if your me ) to do your weekly shopping, its a mugs game aimed at maximising profit from what they call their members, there are commercials all over the country that don't do this so why anglers are prepared to be ripped off like this is a mystery to me.

Interesting that the waters you mention are both "Carp Waters" I use that term advisedly no matter how big the fish are its a commercial, it would seem that some anglers? are so desperate to catch that they will put up with anything asked of them.

There is a club that controls 70 fisheries that charges no joining fee and the annual fee is only £40 adult £30 OAP £15 junior.

 

[mikench]

Juniors at PAAS pay just £10!

 

[thecrow]

And I should think so, all clubs should be encouraging younger people to take angling up, unfortunately not all do.

You seem to be taking my questioning of joining fees as an attack on a club you have recently joined, it isn't I will never understand them, i will never pay them, and am yet to be convinced that there is any good reason for them other than the phrase used by Sam previously that "we have always had a fee"

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either the current 10,000 members or the 3,000 on the waiting list

The waiting list figures certainly seemed to have shot up since you joined?? they really must get through an awful lot of members if you were able to join so quickly after you became one of the 3000.

 

[mikench]

Not at all Crow! I have no idea why I was accepted so soon and modesty forbids..........

I will add that the club secretary advised that7% of the membership died annually All the more reason to promote an interest with juniors. I have no allegiance to the club as yet and may never do. One only lives once however and joining was something I wanted to do!

 

[sam vimes]

I will never understand them, i will never pay them, and am yet to be convinced that there is any good reason for them other than the phrase used by Sam previously that "we have always had a fee"

That's oversimplifying what I was getting at. It may be true of some, but for many, it may be enshrined in their constitutions.

As I said before, I've given many reasons as to why joining fees might exist. Some I can at least understand, even if I disagree with the thinking. Whether you or I think they are valid reasons is immaterial. We either like it or lump it.

One thing I do believe is that no club or syndicate that does have them will have anything but the best interests of the organization at heart. Whether that actually pans out is another matter entirely. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[tigger]

After the initial outlay it costs about 2.30 a week for membership, if that isn't value for money.....

 

[thecrow]

Not at all Crow! I have no idea why I was accepted so soon and modesty forbids

I think both you and i know why and how.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------

After the initial outlay it costs about 2.30 a week for membership, if that isn't value for money.....

No it certainly isn't Ian, be careful next thing you will be telling me that the rod licence is good value

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------

but for many, it may be enshrined in their constitutions.

Easily changed at an AGM

---------- Post added at 19:24 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------

One thing I do believe is that no club or syndicate that does have them will have anything but the best interests of the organization at heart. Whether that actually pans out is another matter entirely. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Agreed.....................

 

[sam vimes]

Easily changed at an AGM

That rather depends on what else is in the constitution. I've encountered some constitutions (not just for angling clubs) that require 100% of the committee to be in attendance along with set percentages of the full members. When so many people treat clubs as nothing more than a business that they purchase a service from, and wouldn't turn up to an AGM or EGM if you paid them, it can be nigh on impossible to circumvent. Many clubs are finding it increasingly difficult to get enough people to form an effective committee as the nothing more than a paying customer attitude becomes increasingly prevalent. Easy to say that previous committees lacked the foresight to change the constitution in years past while they could, but a current committee may be all but hamstrung.

 

[tigger]

No it certainly isn't Ian, be careful next thing you will be telling me that the rod licence is good value

Narrh, I wouldn't go that far .

 

[mikench]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikench View Post

Not at all Crow! I have no idea why I was accepted so soon and modesty forbids
I think both you and i know why and how.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------

Quote:

I really have no idea why or how; certainly not because of my Angling skills

Perhaps last year was a particularly sad one for losing members. I was one of 150 or so being offered membership! I do not regard the annual fee as excessive!

 

[thecrow]

That rather depends on what else is in the constitution. I've encountered some constitutions (not just for angling clubs) that require 100% of the committee to be in attendance along with set percentages of the full members. When so many people treat clubs as nothing more than a business that they purchase a service from, and wouldn't turn up to an AGM or EGM if you paid them, it can be nigh on impossible to circumvent. Many clubs are finding it increasingly difficult to get enough people to form an effective committee as the nothing more than a paying customer attitude becomes increasingly prevalent. Easy to say that previous committees lacked the foresight to change the constitution in years past while they could, but a current committee may be all but hamstrung.

My comment was based on previous experience of changing a constitution at an AGM it was easy pain free and if others were that interested plenty of notice about the AGM was given.

Writing constitutions is something that should not be taken on by the inexperienced, they can be a minefield of mistakes that can come back and bite future committee's on the bum that is why when i was last on a committee and the constitution needed to be changed it was someone with the necessary know how and experience.

The last organisation i was involved in had no problem finding anglers who were interested enough to take a committee role on if required, i know this is not usual these days same with members turning out for an AGM, the organisation i mention has a membership of almost 400 but the AGM would be lucky if to see 20 turning up.

Just as an aside this organisation does have what could be regarded as a joining fee, its as little as £5 to as much as the angler wishes to donate, its only collected in order to verify the anglers identity, much the same as another forum you belong to.

---------- Post added at 20:19 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikench View Post

Not at all Crow! I have no idea why I was accepted so soon and modesty forbids
I think both you and i know why and how.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------

Quote:

I really have no idea why or how; certainly not because of my Angling skills

Perhaps last year was a particularly sad one for losing members. I was one of 150 or so being offered membership! I do not regard the annual fee as excessive!

From PAAS website

With the exception of Juniors, Intermediates and non angling applications, there currently is a waiting list of 2 to 3 years

Maybe they meant months not years?

The only organisations that i have been involved with where angling ability has been taken into account prior to being offered membership......... no i should reword that, where angling attitude has been taken into account have been small syndicates and one single species group.

 

[S-Kippy]

I think I had to wait about a year or so before being invited to join PAAS..... certainly not more than 18 months. Surprised it wasn't sooner once they'd realised who I was and that I posed no threat whatsoever to their fish stocks.

Bloody long way for a 40 min pep talk and a " thanks for coming" though but without PAAS I'd have no reason or opportunity to go sea trouting. Proper sea trouting I mean..... with a fly rod.

 

[thecrow]

They are obviously a good club and my questioning of joining fees wasn't aimed specifically at them but clubs that charge them in general.

I am somewhat perplexed as to why a club would advertise that their waiting list is 2/3 years if it isnt when that may put prospective members off applying because of the wait, unless of course there is more than one way of joining?

 

[The bad one]

unless of course there is more than one way of joining?

That frankly is scurrilous against the club and the officials who run it. Withdraw it! You know ****** all about PAAS other that what you've read on the best and biggest single Club in Europe's website.

The membership waiting time waxes and wains dependant on what waters it gains control of or buys. And yes it has the money to do that through sound financial management. 3 - 4 years has over the last 15 years been the average wait to get in. And it doesn't and hasn't put people off joining, 3000 on the waiting list. It has very few refusals out of those on the list when they are offered the opportunity to join.

 

[thames mudlarker]

I think I had to wait about a year or so before being invited to join PAAS..... certainly not more than 18 months. Surprised it wasn't sooner once they'd realised who I was and that I posed no threat whatsoever to their fish stocks.

Erh... so who are you then .....lols:

 

[thecrow]

That frankly is scurrilous against the club and the officials who run it. Withdraw it! You know ****** all about PAAS other that what you've read on the best and biggest single Club in Europe's website.

And that frankly is a scurrilous comment against me, you read what you want into things I cannot affect that, it just might be the way that your mind works.

As you say I know expletive about PAAS (that's only your opinion as you plainly cannot know what I know) so my comment only showed that I didn't know if there was more than one way of joining the club, unlike you I don't know everything (or think you do)

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And yes it has the money to do that

And right there is the answer to my original question about joining fees, all about money.

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3 - 4 years has over the last 15 years been the average wait to get in

Oh has it??