River Close Season – Is it time for a rethink?

[Judas Priest]

I find it strange that those who have " invited comments" on this subject eg: SP and MS, have used those particular words.
It would appear that a debate involving themselves is the last thing they want, rather the ability to choose who to and when they reply rather than entering into a debate where their views can be challenged openly for all to see.

 

[mick b]

From a previous post on another thread

"We are entirely neutral on the closed season issue, but this is a debate that we are facilitating." Mark Lloyd Chief Executive Angling Trust 5/03/14

Now my question is;
Why does the Angling Trust feel it must facilitate a debate on the close season?

The defination of facilitate is to 'smooth the way of an action or process'
Thus I assume from Mark Lloyd's words that the Angling Trust wishes to make it easier for the subject of the River Close Season to be openly discussed.

However, in "fighting for Fish and Fishing" Mr Lloyd claims the Trust do this by "improving and protecting fish stocks" and by "standing up for the environment"

The Barbel Society can prove beyond all reasonable doubt, that Barbel breed during the close season and that successful breeding would be damaged by anglers being on the bank during the close season months.

By facilitating a debate that goes directly against its own aims and objectives is not the action of a neutral party and leaves the Angling Trust open to the charge of hypocrisy.


When I chaired various committees it was always understood by my members that my personal opinions would be left unspoken and that if I was required to use my casting vote it would be influenced by the preceding debate and nothing else.

Time and individuals may change but morals and ethical behaviour should remain unbroken.


.

 

[sam vimes]

The Barbel Society can prove beyond all reasonable doubt, that Barbel breed during the close season and that successful breeding would be damaged by anglers being on the bank during the close season months.

Can they really? I guess they didn't venture too far north for their proof then?
The barbel I've regularly seen spawn well after June 16th must be a figment of my imagination. Can I also ask how on earth that they've proved that successful breeding would be damaged by closed season angling? Did they just ask Bob James?

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

The barbel I've regularly seen spawn well after June 16th must be a figment of my imagination.

Now you're making me wonder about the fish that I caught on the last Sunday of June last year, Sam. I'd put a bait out for some small chub, but what I thought was a 14lbs 11ozs barbel picked it up, she was completely kippered, spawned perhaps the week before - in the season. Or was she just a figment of my imagination?

Why does the Angling Trust feel it must facilitate a debate on the close season?

Why shouldn't it? The Trust represents the views of ALL anglers, not just those who favour the CS and all they have done is to facilitate a debate, nothing more. Just like opening a thread on here, does this mean that the owners of Fishingmagic and everyone involved with its running want to see the end of the close season? I doubt judging by Mr Jacobs' plaintive cries...

When I chaired various committees it was always understood by my members that my personal opinions would be left unspoken and that if I was required to use my casting vote it would be influenced by the preceding debate and nothing else.

Perhaps you could have quoted that in answer to Judas Priest's comment on why SP and MS are not entering the debate - same as yourself!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

So, you never have your car serviced unless it's broke? Silly statement.

I'm not sure about his comments on zinc levels and Marmite, but he might have had a point, after all it still hasn't been tried and we still seems to be enduring a lot of aggression in that part of the world - witness the sad news of two journalists of yesterday. Methinks your own purported cleverness does you no favours.

and finally -

Supporters of abolishing the Close Season seem to continually harp back to the Mundella Act as if they themselves were stuck in the 1800's

He who has one eye on the past walks around half blind. He who walks around with no eyes on the past is completely blind.

It is as well to know well the subject you are talking about and all the reasons for it.

 

[chav professor]

How old is the 'close season debate'???????

Has there always been an opposition against it??? Even during implementation of Mundella act?

Why is angling so divided???? only need to take a look on the Close season poll thread. Has it always consistently been a majority that support the close season? (you can't add the 'don't cares')

Would anglers come back to rivers and river fishing if the close season was abolished?

Both sides seem to have deeply entrenched views for and against...... Reasoned debates put forward by both sides. I guess the form is both sides put forward the same stuff year after year and we will see if there will be a change of consensus.....

 

[thecrow]

How old is the 'close season debate'???????

Has there always been an opposition against it??? Even during implementation of Mundella act?

Why is angling so divided???? only need to take a look on the Close season poll thread. Has it always consistently been a majority that support the close season? (you can't add the 'don't cares')

Would anglers come back to rivers and river fishing if the close season was abolished?

Both sides seem to have deeply entrenched views for and against...... Reasoned debates put forward by both sides. I guess the form is both sides put forward the same stuff year after year and we will see if there will be a change of consensus.....

How many of those that voted to keep it do not fish rivers? how many fish still waters during the C/S?

 

[chav professor]

How many of those that voted to keep it do not fish rivers? how many fish still waters during the C/S?

I do! Where is the conflict?

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

How old is the 'close season debate'???????

I am presently reading At The Tail Of The Weir, first published in 1932, in which the author (Patrick Chalmers) suggests that he would extend it from February 28th until the 1st of July. Oh, barring chub, for they "bring joy to a summer's morning", that would be completely excluded from the close.

Has there always been an opposition against it??? Even during implementation of Mundella act?

Yes, I guess so even at the time. Those in opposition tried in the early 1880s to get the dates amended for a variety of reasons. - AND - Yes, even during the debates leading up to the Act.

As folks on here like quotations -
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Personal-
I'll fight for it's abolition simply because I do believe that local knowledge and local actions are best to serve spawning fish, if (big IF) it is deemed necessary. I would agree with aforementioned Chalmers in that fishing for non-predator river fish should not commence until 1st July (the fact that I caught a barbel on last Sunday of June last year was for reasons other than just fishing - normally I wouldn't). I would ban fishing for predatory fish from end of February until the end of April and then ban non-predatory species from 1st May to 30th June inclusive. But that's only on one stretch I am involved with, on another stretch there would be no close season because the EA themselves have assured me that no breeding areas exist. So I guess I am insane - according to Einstein.

 

[chav professor]

Every year I see this debate... I often think I'll give it a miss - but then get dragged into what is effectively a Forum debate taking place in a microcosm that is 'fishing'....

I would suggest that as a pastime it is widely misunderstood by anyone who does not go fishing....

Nothing we write on here would strike a chord with a society largely dissociated from the natural world.

I don't support the close season to accomodate any wider 'green' movement - possibly far smaller in number and even more misunderstood.

I would suggest that a differentiation between rivers and still waters was clearly understood at the time of it relaxing the close season.....

Can you put an otter fence around the full confines of a river?
Are still waters as prone to significant flooding?
Are still water subject to abstraction due to thoughtless planning and population growth?
Are still waters prone to pollution and run-off in the same way as rivers?
Are rivers managed in the same way as stillwaters?
Can you stock a river with multiples of the same species?
Can river fish be confined within known boundaries?
Do as many people fish rivers as they used to?
Is the Environmental Agency responsible directly to rivers in the same way as they would be to a privately owned/managed still water?

---------- Post added at 05:04 ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 ----------

we are all insane Jeff - and I respect your opinions and views for what they are as I always have.

I would also add - I too can see sense in both sides of the argument and occasionally waver... especially when I see Environmental Agency policy in action on my own 'patch'..........

But for now.... my own convictions support a close season accepting that in its current form it is easily understood, far easier to enforce and broadly benefits a river I hold close to my heart.

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Why shouldn't it? The Trust represents the views of ALL anglers, not just those who favour the CS and all they have done is to facilitate a debate, nothing more. Just like opening a thread on here, does this mean that the owners of Fishingmagic and everyone involved with its running want to see the end of the close season? I doubt judging by Mr Jacobs' plaintive cries...
Perhaps you could have quoted that in answer to Judas Priest's comment on why SP and MS are not entering the debate - same as yourself!

So, you never have your car serviced unless it's broke? Silly statement.

I think you are missing the point there, he said “when I chaired various committee's” this is not a committee meeting is it?

Judas is quite right the silence from SP and MS is deafening in the extreme one has to wonder why they are unwilling to discuss their own views on here? They have after all expressed them to both the trust and the angling press why not the Hoi Pallo? Are we not worthy?

Yes I have my car serviced to keep it running smoothly, the CS is running smoothly enough for most of us but not for the few it seems.
You say the Trust have only initiated a debate and nothing more, well can you tell me why the debate is listed on the trust website under campaigns?

Read this quote it is clear that they intended to make formal approaches to both the EA and Government, so this is not just a debate is it. I have highlighted the relevant sentence for you.
Now call me a cynic if you like, but I believe this debate has no bearing on where things are going and why those named by MS are involved. The others MS refers some have been named they include Dave Harrell, Steve Pope, Des Taylor, and others reading the paragraph below readers and members of FM must make there own minds up if we are being told everything that is really going on.

An old saying comes to mind “would you buy a second hand car from this man” answers on a post card, my answer is a definite NO!



“The devastating floods of 2014 have impacted on the tackle shops and the tackle trade as much as on any other business that relies on participation in an outdoor pursuit for survival. This has led the Angling Trust to write to the Prime Minister arguing that these businesses should be included in the floods compensation measures. It has also caused others to ask us to re-ignite the river close season debate and to make formal approaches to the Environment Agency and to government.”

Kind regards
Ray

 

[sam vimes]

Can you put an otter fence around the full confines of a river?

No, but I'm not sure what difference it makes to a closed season debate. Predators aren't affected one way or another by the closed season, they don't vanish on the 16th of march.

Are still waters as prone to significant flooding?

Some are, depends on their location, proximity to rivers or streams and geological location.

Are still waters prone to pollution and run-off in the same way as rivers?

Yes.

Are rivers managed in the same way as rivers?

??? Presuming you meant to substitute "stillwaters" for "rivers" somewhere in that sentence, it rather depends on what you mean by management.

Can you stock a river with multiples of the same species?

They seem to do exactly that in many cases.

Can river fish be confined within known boundaries?

Much depends on the river and the individual fish. I know of sections of rivers that have weirs at either end. Despite the fish being able to traverse the weirs, plenty of recognised fish never seem to move. That can be the case eveen without weirs. Plenty of known fish from rivers up and down the country seem to be caught from the same short stretches year after year.

Do as many people fish rivers as they used to?

Almost definitely not.

Is the Environmental Agency responsible directly to rivers in the same way as they would be to a privately owned/managed still water?

I don't know if it's exactly the same but they do still exert plenty of influence on private stillwaters. I've always been puzzled as to how the EA will assist with the (damned expensive) stocking of some privately owned stillwaters and not others. I'd love it if they'd bung several thousand roach and bream or even gudgeon my way, but I doubt it'll happen. Quite rightly, they aren't likely to help a small syndicate stock a large gravel pit. However, they'll sometimes assist small clubs and even some small day ticket waters.

I'm still a little puzzled as to what predation, flooding, run off etc has to do with a closed season. All happen regardless of there being a closed season or not.

 

[chav professor]

I'm puzzled that the Environmental agency differentiated between the two in such a clear and succinct manor in that case.

 

[thecrow]

I do! Where is the conflict?

Hypocrisy....

 

[chav professor]

Even fishing clubs local to my area seem to have a preference towards still waters... they have more autonomy regarding stocking fish, can add platforms where and if they please without the same red tape........

Within a 60 mile radius, you can fish for stocked Zander, catfish and F1 carp.... all given licences if they are sufficiently isolated from river systems.

Local club wanted to stock Barbel - denied..... Can catch them from an assortment of still waters.

Still waters are not seen as an extension of ditch, road and sewage management in the same way as rivers have been casually disregarded.

The EA have been very generous to one of our local clubs... a new lake was offered free crucian carp (true strain), roach and bream fingerlings.

The relevance of all these differences are not subtle (estrogenic compounds are thought to disrupt fish reproduction in the long run). A river in full flood? loose whole or part year classes in certain circumstances.

---------- Post added at 05:44 ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 ----------

Hypocrisy....

On my part? That's were the debate begins to turn.... keep to the issues. I am happy with my morality. My thinking is.... I would prefer to see a complete close season rather than a relaxation be seen as setting the scene for a complete abolition.

why is places where fish live and breed not just called water? The differences are profound.

 

[thecrow]

Even fishing clubs local to my area seem to have a preference towards still waters... they have more autonomy regarding stocking fish, can add platforms where and if they please without the same red tape........

Within a 60 mile radius, you can fish for stocked Zander, catfish and F1 carp.... all given licences if they are sufficiently isolated from river systems.

Local club wanted to stock Barbel - denied..... Can catch them from an assortment of still waters.

Still waters are not seen as an extension of ditch, road and sewage management in the same way as rivers have been casually disregarded.

The EA have been very generous to one of our local clubs... a new lake was offered free crucian carp (true strain), roach and bream fingerlings.

The relevance of all these differences are not subtle (estrogenic compounds are thought to disrupt fish reproduction in the long run). A river in full flood? loose whole or part year classes in certain circumstances.

---------- Post added at 05:44 ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 ----------



On my part? That's were the debate begins to turn.... keep to the issues. I am happy with my morality. My thinking is.... I would prefer to see a complete close season rather than a relaxation be seen as setting the scene for a complete abolition.

why is places where fish live and breed not just called water? The differences are profound.

Then don't fish during the current c/s, you really cannot have it both ways.

 

[chav professor]

I can and I will

C'mon..... stick to the issue..... I can put up a robust argument

 

[Peter Jacobs]

So, you never have your car serviced unless it's broke? Silly statement

Yes Jeff, yours was a silly comment, and not at all a reasonable example; think of it this way if it helps you;

the Close Season on our rivers is very much like keeping one's car regularly serviced so as to avoid potential disastrous mishaps later on . . . . . .

 

[thecrow]

I can and I will

C'mon..... stick to the issue..... I can put up a robust argument

You may have "a robust argument" but that argument will be based on your views only, others also have robust arguments that come from their views, there is no doubt that these arguments will go on and on, there is no evidence to back up either sides arguments and unless evidence is gathered from several rivers where the c/s has been lifted there never will be and even then the evidence will be flawed as river fish are free to move as far as they like within the limitations of the river. unless of coarse the fish stocks improve on those rivers

I thought I was sticking to the issue.

 

[chav professor]

ruddy 'eck... I can't juggle between the two... I refer to the Farage/Clegg debate comment:

Dodgy stats, interpretations wildly differing, deeply entrenched view points and if there was a referendum? We all know who would win....

Its all subjective to a point... one of the things with a Forum... its a platform for individual opinion.... a microcosm... makes not a jot of difference in the real world.

we all have to accept the limitations of our interpretations and individual stand point! I don't think its a case of 'fighting' to keep the close season on rivers... rather than it is unlikely to collect sufficient momentum with regard to a change of legislation.

Cynically, I think the EA likes to impose and keep the close season - perhaps for reasons that certainly do not help our cause. it don't half chafe a bit to see electrofishing in the close season - or removing entire swaves of bankside vegetation.... they carry on regardless.

 

[thecrow]

ruddy 'eck... I can't juggle between the two... I refer to the Farage/Clegg debate comment:

Dodgy stats, interpretations wildly differing, deeply entrenched view points and if there was a referendum? We all know who would win....

Its all subjective to a point... one of the things with a Forum... its a platform for individual opinion.... a microcosm... makes not a jot of difference in the real world.

we all have to accept the limitations of our interpretations and individual stand point! I don't think its a case of 'fighting' to keep the close season on rivers... rather than it is unlikely to collect sufficient momentum with regard to a change of legislation.

Cynically, I think the EA likes to impose and keep the close season - perhaps for reasons that certainly do not help our cause. it don't half chafe a bit to see electrofishing in the close season - or removing entire swaves of bankside vegetation.... they carry on regardless.[/QUOTE]







On that point I agree 100% you were lucky in keeping your Willow, I knew a swim that had an overhanging Willow where the current pushed through under it over gravel, on the last occasion I went there the tree was no longer, nor was the Woodpecker I saw on it regularly, vandalism.