Frothey
Senior Member
i bet even walker wouldn't chose a heron over a delkim lol. they were seriously rubbish alarms.
What defines a truly English carp?
- Thread starter dezza
- Start date
Chris Frankish 2
Well-known member
Its ok if you don't get it Frothey, it's a personal thing. Like I mentioned before when I said that sometimes I like to catch them on my terms. Sure it will probably take me longer to catch a carp from Mapperley using cane rods,old reels, Jack Hilton hooks and bread paste but the fish at the end of the wait is more important to me than the weight of the fish at the end.
If you get me?
I do get some funny looks when I'm there though, I'm never short of visitors.
Frothey
Senior Member
i do get it, but what I dont get is the way that some people think it's "better" or more worthy to catch fish like that. the methods and tackle used back then were the best of the time. time moves on.
Chris Frankish 2
Well-known member
I never said I thought it was better or more worthy Frothey! I do it that way for my own enjoyment. Surely that's what our angling should be to us all, a matter of personal enjoyment. I'm not in the business of trying to persuade bait boat users t sell up and start casting or encourage people to buy a cane rod. It's each to their own and I prefer to concentrate on my own angling instead of worrying what others are up to (unless what they're doing endangers fish or other wildlife).
Who knows I may in the future select a water where I want to target a particular fish or to beat my current pb and I'll roll out the RXs and boilies but for the present time I'm just enjoying going fishing.
Anyhoo,
we've taken Ron's thread well off topic here, hope he doesn't mind.
Frothey
Senior Member
I said "some people", not you 
Ron will always take a thread off track to have a moan about carp and carp anglers, it's what he's here for.
that, and he adds that "old duffer in the corner of the pub that everyone blanks to avoid talking about the good old day's" ambience to the forum. bless him.
Ron will always take a thread off track to have a moan about carp and carp anglers, it's what he's here for.
that, and he adds that "old duffer in the corner of the pub that everyone blanks to avoid talking about the good old day's" ambience to the forum. bless him.
dezza
Well-known member
Where am I moaning about carp and carp anglers? All I am trying to do is to get maybe some decorum back into the business of carp fishing. Sure I was partly instrumental in describing a method of catching carp that changed the ethos of the sport from carp hunting to carp trapping.
But carp can still be caught using some "traditional" methods such as floating baits and margin fishing. The only problem with these methods is that if you are to make them work you don't want to compete with a trapper using multiple rods, big pit reels, buzzers and heavy bolt rigs who is clumping up and down the bank with a white coloured tee shirt on proclaiming someone's boilies, casting in excess of 100 yards, and who spends hours on end adjusting his blinkin buzzers.
The most exciting carp fishing I have ever done is called margin fishing where you set up behind a bush or the marginal rushes on the down wind side of the lake, laying down a few crusts which the wind blows into the margins. You wait with bated breath and heart pumping ten to the dozen as leviathan comes sucking in the free crusts. Then you lower your crust on the water and bit by bit leviathan closes in on the crust with your hook in it.........
But you can't do this sort of fishing if you are having to compete with a mob of "Dan anyfink mate" types who have no idea of basic watercraft.
But carp can still be caught using some "traditional" methods such as floating baits and margin fishing. The only problem with these methods is that if you are to make them work you don't want to compete with a trapper using multiple rods, big pit reels, buzzers and heavy bolt rigs who is clumping up and down the bank with a white coloured tee shirt on proclaiming someone's boilies, casting in excess of 100 yards, and who spends hours on end adjusting his blinkin buzzers.
The most exciting carp fishing I have ever done is called margin fishing where you set up behind a bush or the marginal rushes on the down wind side of the lake, laying down a few crusts which the wind blows into the margins. You wait with bated breath and heart pumping ten to the dozen as leviathan comes sucking in the free crusts. Then you lower your crust on the water and bit by bit leviathan closes in on the crust with your hook in it.........
But you can't do this sort of fishing if you are having to compete with a mob of "Dan anyfink mate" types who have no idea of basic watercraft.
Stealph Viper
Well-known member
One Man's Pain, Is Another Man's Pleasure ............ Springs to Mind
Frothey
Senior Member
you always moan about it Ron, veiled insults and stereotyping - just re-read your post.
but you can ron, most of the carp have grown accustomed to it on the commercial waters and come suprisingly close, whatever the bankside disturbance. after all, if everyone casts 100yds, where will the fish feel safe?
but you can ron, most of the carp have grown accustomed to it on the commercial waters and come suprisingly close, whatever the bankside disturbance. after all, if everyone casts 100yds, where will the fish feel safe?
The "Ron on the Carp forum" was tongue in cheek Mr Clay...I know you fished for Carp and had a hand in popularising the bolt rig before turning you attention to the far less worthy and easier to catch trout...Ha Ha..joke..
Although I agree its likely I am still not convinced all the big Redmire fish were dutch originals and some may have been spawned on. You certainly cannot be sure from looking at the weights alone as fish like Rasberry never reached the size of some of the others, so like anywere, some fish simply grow bigger than others and the biggest may not be the oldest.
You obviously don't like the Bishop as you have scorned it a few times in the past and consider it stupid. I consider it a historical fish that lived to a ripe age and is part of Carp
angling folklore. In addition when you consider how few times it was actually caught in its lifetime dispite living in a tiny 3 acre water being fished by some of the best anglers round the clock it was not actually that stupid was it. Plus whose to say Clarrisa was not even more stupid and would have been caught more frequently ?... we never got to find out as your mate stuck it in a zoo on its first capture and stopped anyone else angling for it.
Someone mentioned about the draining and regeneration of waters...Yes this is something I have seen a few times. Same happens when waters are treated for weed. If you have a water that has some big fish that appear to be stuck at a certain weight and that water gets treated for weed my advice is get yourself on it as the following season weights can go through the roof.
**** didn't stick Clarissa in a zoo to stop anyone catching it. He did so to enable him to claim a record without having to bang it on the head. The capture of that fish caused many anglers to take up carp fishing and many of those who did so did the ground work for the carp anglers today. If that record had not been claimed the angling scene might be very different to what it is today, and of course, if he had banged it on the head, that would have prevented it from being caught again wouldn't it.
dezza
Well-known member
That's right mate.
Old **** had to answer the question as to why he put the fish in the London Zoo aquarium many times. It was to prove that carp of that size did exist in England. If the fish had been returned, no one, particularly the icthyologists and freshwater biologists would have believed the capture. It would have been anecdotal evidence only.
No matter how many photographs, no matter how many affidavits and witness statements can be produced, such "evidence" is unacceptable to a scientist.
An Walker had a thing to prove to the scientists.
---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------
Oh and the Bishop?
Sorry to say it but she was a "raddled old tart!"
Old **** had to answer the question as to why he put the fish in the London Zoo aquarium many times. It was to prove that carp of that size did exist in England. If the fish had been returned, no one, particularly the icthyologists and freshwater biologists would have believed the capture. It would have been anecdotal evidence only.
No matter how many photographs, no matter how many affidavits and witness statements can be produced, such "evidence" is unacceptable to a scientist.
An Walker had a thing to prove to the scientists.
---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------
Oh and the Bishop?
Sorry to say it but she was a "raddled old tart!"
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As we have debated a few times I consider his motives were quite selfish & simply to prove he had caught a 40 pounder...note...40 pounder NOT 44 pounder...it was taken in and out of a sack so many times to show off to people it suffered excessive water retention which artificially boosted its weight and it almost died...even Walker never claimed 44 pounds for it
Anyway, Ravioli was still a symbolic fish and started many off as you say on their Carp fishing careers. Unfortunately for it, it was also the fish that started the specimen circus which you of course deplore.
..We could argue the toss forever I guess....how about a change of track ...what did you make of the Eddie Price Photos ? Do you know if Walker have an opinion on those ?
Anyway, Ravioli was still a symbolic fish and started many off as you say on their Carp fishing careers. Unfortunately for it, it was also the fish that started the specimen circus which you of course deplore.
..We could argue the toss forever I guess....how about a change of track ...what did you make of the Eddie Price Photos ? Do you know if Walker have an opinion on those ?
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Nathan
Well-known member
As a newbie to the carp fishing world i've found this thread quite interesting. I've only been fishing for about 6/7 years but in that time i've seen many different kinds of carp & carp fishing technique but i've never really considered the history. I've seen the passion for angling episode at redmire but so much of that now seems lost in a world of instant success.
To return to the original question of the thread an english carp to me is one that has grown up here - regardless of its hertigate. I still prefer to catch smaller undisturbed carp from my local canal than the big ones stocked into mud holes with no natural food but thats just me. If i could find a seculded 'redmire' near me with 40lb carp to go at i'd be there in a shot!
To return to the original question of the thread an english carp to me is one that has grown up here - regardless of its hertigate. I still prefer to catch smaller undisturbed carp from my local canal than the big ones stocked into mud holes with no natural food but thats just me. If i could find a seculded 'redmire' near me with 40lb carp to go at i'd be there in a shot!
Derek Gibson
Well-known member
And agree or not Nathan thats Rons point too,and mine come to that . To find a small idylic pool somewhere where it is possible to fish in a very intimate way " close contact fishing ". Not that this approach is superior or eletist , or more skillful. Maybe it touches something certain anglers need. Or perhaps just old timers trying to recapture their youth!!.
Chris Frankish 2
Well-known member
I can't go along with that Philip. I've recently read up a lot about **** Walker including his biography and the overall feeling from anyone who fished or worked with him was that he was a generous, selfless man. The amount of tackle he gave away spontaniously was unbelievable never mind the time he devoted helping people. I understand that he was keen to promote carp angling and my thinking about his reasons for the call to London Zoo align with Ron's here. The weight of 44lb was actually arrived at on an accurate set of scales at London Zoo.
I can't follow you're thinking about water retention adding weight. Normally fish weighed again after spending any time in a sack tend to lose weight, water retention would be down to some biological dysfunction.
**** never actually claimed the record either, it was pushed into place by a wave of general acceptance.
---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------
Did it?
Yes , the capture of the fish fuelled a desire by many anglers to target carp as a species but lets face it the growth in numbers of carp anglers throughout the 50s,60s and 70s was hardly on a biblical scale. Sure there was growth but it was all still a very "undeground and mysterious" faction of angling. And no-one carp angling during those times adopted the habit of consuming the equivalent of a crate of Stella on a session.
Look at the 80s however, the outing of the hair at the beginning of the decade and the growth of the carp magazines and The Carp Society and it's national and regional meetings.
The greatest leveller ever to emerge onto the carp scene and an overload of not just information but glorification of carp fishing. I believe the 80s also saw the import of large foreign carp in numbers.
What's really the cause for the production of the "Carp Industry".
dezza
Well-known member
I don't know how old you are Philip or whether you were around and fishing in the 50s or not, but I was and I can tell you that the last thing you could describe Walker as was selfish. I suppose this has been said before, but I will say it again, Walker never made a brass farthing out of angling other than to accept fees for his articles, and we all did that. It paid for our fishing.
He used to answer upwards of 60 letters a week, in hand written longhand too. If you wrote a letter to Walker, provided it was intelligently put together, you got a reply, a reply that sometimes consisted of 30 pages!
He used to spend hours with young anglers for no monetary return whatsoever, not like some I can mention today.
As regards the Redmire Monster - yes it could have existed.
During the early 70s I chased up another monster, that swam in Bon Accord Dam, just north of Pretoria. I saw a rather poor photograph of the fish which was found dead. It was supposed to weigh over 40 kg!!
It was cetainly an enormous fish
Stealph Viper
Well-known member
Not all Great men, make great decisions all of the Time
Nathan
Well-known member
For me it's about fishing somewhere quiet away from the circuses. I fished a few 'well known' lakes last year & hated every minute of it (apart from the day it snowed in April). It was filled with p*ssed up idiots with stereo's blasting out music & generally causing a scene. Not my kind of fishing at all. I just like the more secluded lakes where you feel like you become more in tune with both the venue & the fish, regardless of what size they may be.
Some will undoubtedly disagree but that's the joy of fishing - each to their own. Hopefully it means less people on my 'dream' lake
) That's all why i like pike fishing in winter - miles of empty banks!
A true English carp, technically there is no such thing, carp of course are not indiginous to the UK, however we do have a number of varieties and should not confuse indiginous with endemic, the English endemic Cyprinus carpio rex was always considered to be the Wildie, probably first introduced by the Romans and most certainly farmed by my ancestors, the medievil Monks, for the table, The Wildie is not a different spiece but a different variety through its phenotype (what it actually looks like), it is not in itself a fast growing strain and was never genetically selected for the table, or at least certainly not using more modern methodologies, but reared in steqw ponds. However, it is unlikely any true wild strain now exist because of the genetic pollution of the Kings varieties. The Wildie was a fully scaled carp, high shouldered and of excellent fighting capabilities,a natural wild fish in its purest form, the King varieties are a result of genetic modification designed to grow larger and scaleless fish for the table, the throw backs from these are fully scaled mirrors, leathers, linears and an whole plethora of inbetweens with more of a body shape with a condition factor of 200 than anything resembling the torpedo dynamics of the endemic English Wildie. Now I`m not saying this is a bad thing, but simply the way things are.
Chris Frankish 2
Well-known member
I think I'd split the two disiplines by my definitions of "active angling" when stalking the margins or surface fishing and "static fishing" when a bait and wait approach is used. This would be immaterial of the type of tackle used because either type can be carried out by using modern or vintage tackle. There are different skills in play with both approaches but surely the old adage of "find em, feed em, catch em" applies to both, or should do.
I'm in the fortunate position of being in the process of "rejuvenating" a 3 1/2 acre pool and funnily enough Ron's suggestion of a boilie, bivvy, buzzer ban has entered my thoughts.
TBH though if night fishing is going to take place then the latter two would be hard to ban. I use the Herons and my oval at Mapperley so that I can do the night because of the distance involved. Maybe its possible to ban their use during daylight hours? I'm just thinking that when there's a chance to enjoy what might be a good few years of the opportunity to fish for relatively uneducated carp with traditional methods and baits it would be wrong to start off by introducing them to boilies and bolt rigs straight away.