Eyed or spade?

[peterjg]

It some anglers are skilled enough to use spade end hooks and knots successfully then well done. If other anglers are also happy to use spade ends which have weaker knots than eyed hooks then why not, it's their loss literally!

 

[The bad one]

I tend to compromise with spade and eyed hooks as I whip both of them on the hook, with the line coming off the back of the hooks. Given the thickness and fulcrum point of where it’s whipped is so small, I think you are debating minutia of a cat’s arse really.

Oh and yes, I whip all my hooks by hand, none of this hook tying machine crap for me. And I can’t remember the last time a knot failed on me!

Once took on a match guy on at work at whipping hooks on, he picked the small hooks, I picked the large hooks. I beat him over the two hooks and was sat waiting for him to finish by 30 seconds.

 

[markcw]

I did toy with the idea of getting one, but the weight issue put me off,
People said the AS1 was heavy, but I would say its lighter than a lot of boxes in production today, plus the way the strap is fitted really balances the box.


Anyway we digresss and part hijacked the thread,
So how many turns of line do people do when tying spade end hook or a knotless knot.
I usually put around 7 or 8 turns on a spade end regardless of size, I have sen people doing around 12 o or 15 then start trying to get the line neat with fingers. Also I think on light hooks the more turns of line affects the way the hook acts .

Has anyone tried the "Hook in a Loop" method ,?

 

[bracket]

I read that the universally admired and respected river match angler John Dean would cut the spade on hooks in half, stone the remainder, stone the point, squash the barb, tie them on a home-made machine and dope the whipping. Think how much more he might have won had he wised up to eyed hooks

Kev. Doctoring the hooks was something we all used to do back then. At one time the "in hook" was a mustad 515a forged hook, for caster, suitable fettled. I have lost count of the number of times, at work, I have crimped the barbs, reduced the spade, tied and doped hundreds of these hooks, only for Frank Barlow to help himself to a slack handful.
I didn't realise the, behind or in front option would be so controversial. On the sizes I use: 22s to 18s, I don't think it has much effect either way. It is down to personal preference. Something akin to the argument between Lilliput and Blefuscu on how to crack a hard boiled egg. Pete.

 

[rob48]

Has there been an epidemic of knot failures on spade-end hooks that I'm unaware of? I tie all my own with a simple whipping working down the shank from the spade and tuck the end through the loop after, say, eight turns on a 24, ten on a 20, twelve on a 16 or above. They don't come undone and they don't fail, so I don't see how they can be "weaker" than any other knot. I tie them by hand and I've done so many I could probably tie them blindfold. One advantage of a whipping type knot is that the more pressure that's applied to it the tighter it becomes.

 

[The bad one]

6 to 7 for me more than that on a small hook and you start to over-whip and that's no good as you are strigulating the one below it, which will cause a failure at some point.

 

[markcw]

@rob48 have you tried less turns on the larger size hooks. ?

 

[markcw]

6 to 7 for me more than that on a small hook and you start to over-whip and that's no good as you are strigulating the one below it, which will cause a failure at some point.

That is what was happening with those who were putting 15 turns on the hook.

 

[rob48]

@rob48 have you tried less turns on the larger size hooks. ?

No. I find that a dozen is OK on the slightly longer shanks of 16s and 14s.

 

[108831]

It some anglers are skilled enough to use spade end hooks and knots successfully then well done. If other anglers are also happy to use spade ends which have weaker knots than eyed hooks then why not, it's their loss literally!

Kev. Doctoring the hooks was something we all used to do back then. At one time the "in hook" was a mustad 515a forged hook, for caster, suitable fettled. I have lost count of the number of times, at work, I have crimped the barbs, reduced the spade, tied and doped hundreds of these hooks, only for Frank Barlow to help himself to a slack handful.
I didn't realise the, behind or in front option would be so controversial. On the sizes I use: 22s to 18s, I don't think it has much effect either way. It is down to personal preference. Something akin to the argument between Lilliput and Blefuscu on how to crack a hard boiled egg. Pete.

Hi Pete,was the 515 a sister hook of the 31381,I used those a lot back in the day,crystal bend,forged,great hook back then...

 

[108831]

People have strange ideas,if someone tied a size 16 spade end correctly to say 6lb maxima and you tied an eyed hook with a palomar I would expect very little difference in strength,knots,for tying hooks,loops etc are all as strong as the persons skill in tying them,I prefer a grinner to a palomar,in fact I find it a cow to tie well 100% of the time,the grinner is easy peasy,my loop knot doesnt let me down yet a man in the trade told me it is weak,send me some line and I will tie some for you to test,I have never been broken at the loop,ever,thats on lines from 12ozs to 12lbs...
My controlling factors as to whether I use eyed or spade is baits to be used and presentations,simple as that...

 

[Keith M]

I prefer a Grinner knot to a Palomar knot especially when tying smaller eyed hooks; not because one is better than the other because they are both excellent reliable knots; however what tips the scales for me is that when the Palomar knot is used the line is doubled as it goes through the eye of the hook; meaning that the eye of the hook needs to be large enough for the line to go through twice; and on a lot of the smaller eyed hooks that I use the eyes are just too small for me to use the Palomar knot.

Keith

 

[bracket]

Hi Pete,was the 515 a sister hook of the 31381,I used those a lot back in the day,crystal bend,forged,great hook back then...

Whitty. I reckon so, the 515a was forged with an off set point. Very strong and sharp . Ideal for the caster with the barb crimped, especially when the chub were about. Pete.

 

[nottskev]

I prefer a Grinner knot to a Palomar knot especially when tying smaller eyed hooks; not because one is better than the other because they are both excellent reliable knots; however what tips the scales for me is that when the Palomar knot is used the line is doubled as it goes through the eye of the hook; meaning that the eye of the hook needs to be large enough for the line to go through twice; and on a lot of the smaller eyed hooks that I use the eyes are just too small for me to use the Palomar knot.

Keith

I agree Keith - I just use it for my barbel fishing hooks which are nearly always 10 and above. No problem putting the line through twice, I do use grinners a lot too, eg on swivels, as you can't Palomar both sides, for obvious reasons, and for hooks if I use braid - rare but I have some weird super abrasion proof orange stuff for the rockiest swims.

 

[peterjg]

Kev, you can put a Palomar on both sides of a swivel - tie the swivel to the hooklength first then tie same swivel to the reel line.

We've all fluked by accident big fish on light lines so surely it makes sense to use the strongest knots - knots to eyed hooks are stronger - it's a simple test to prove it.

 

[nottskev]

Cheers |Peter, I can see that you can pull the swivel plus whatever's trailing through to make the second knot. I can feel your incredulity - but I grew up fishing canals with 2lb reel lines and 1lb hooklengths, and I'm always to this day - snag barbel aside - on the light side, even though fish seem mysteriously bigger these days. I rarely lose a fish through tackle failure; in fact I can't remember it happening, apart from hook pulls or odd fish snagging me up, so I'm not really disposed to think my knots are in any way needing to be revised. I'd be the first to look for "better" knots if I ever thought it was needed. My fishing tests my knots every time out, and they pass the test.

 

[108831]

Well I know/have kniwn several very good specimen anglers who deliberately fished for big barbel on the float on size 16/18 hooks to 5 to 7lb pound lines,many between 13 and 18lbs,they didnt lose many,they also did not faff about with them either,but eyed hooks are best,and palomar knots are too,yet in reality more anglers still use half blood knots,a supposedly inferior knot,tell me,what rod can actually apply 6lbs of pressure on a ninety degree pull,so does the knot break at 2lb,nah,course it doesnt,as I said if you dont tie knots correctly,ensuring they are tightened correctly etc you will have a very weak knot,imho I find it hard to believe fishing say one and a half pound line on a size twenty with a palomar,in fact I couldnt think of anything more awkward to do,and I have pretty good eyes(but sausages for fingers,lol)...

 

[peterjg]

It's all so interesting to read other obviously successful anglers opinions. We all have our own ways and methods and it shows confidence and reasoning in them are so important, if it works for you why change. Nice to be able discuss ideas.

 

[markcw]

@peterjg true, it is a good thread with people contributing ideas and opinions.
It has livened the forum up.
We could do with a few more threads that get members participating .

 

[Regalis]

@peterjg true, it is a good thread with people contributing ideas and opinions.
It has livened the forum up.
We could do with a few more threads that get members participating .