no-one in particular
Well-known member
No evidence, no pictures, no location, no witnesses, same as before, nothing to add from where it left off last time. Whats the point?
Gaymire: Are the Monsters Still There?
- Thread starter FishingMagic
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Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Apologies for my delay in getting back.
Eddie told me he'd deleted his article because he felt he just might have said too much, but I thought it was ok. However, on looking at the thread around six days later I found it still in place! Eddie assured me it had disappeared when he deleted it and was puzzled why it had reappeared, so I did it for him.
Mark g: there ARE pictures of many of Martin's fish available on this site; they are pictured laid-out on green grass. Best of all is the pic of Martin and his whacker, crouching in long grass typical of what you would find around any English lake or gravel pit. There are also pictures of Selman's infamous stark, cold, bare concrete power station outlet from where it is - and was - impossible to fish. There's even a shot of the very swim from where Selman reckons Martin caught the biggie AND a fascinating explanation of how Martin would have gone back to his car (parked just behind, in the road) for a wash and brush-up prior to being photographed. Pity then, isn't it, that the shot - so brashly and conclusively identified by Selman - is of Kingston General Hospital and NOT Lennox power station!
Do you see the problem here, Mark? At least ask yourself the question: how the hell would Selman know?
No pictures, Mark? Well how about the one of the shore at the mouth of Selman's outlet? Take another look. Do you honestly think it tallies with what you see in Martin's pics? Well? Do you? If you, somehow, think it might, have you read the geologists' reports and comments? Well? Have you?
As for evidence, Mark; I would agree that there's only a little more than there was first time around, but during that initial expose of Selman and the Carp Society, Eddie and I provided a huge amount of evidence. Didn't you read it, Mark? And didn't you read that I now fish the water that produced Martin's haul...the very same swims? No?
Witnesses? We told you that Chris Yates had seen ALL of the untouched pictures (like Eddie and I had) and had confidently stated his belief that the captures were made in this country. We also told you that club committee members 'Mac' McArthy, Micky Tilbrook, Gwynne Davis, John Sutton, John Amos and six others had seen the untouched pictures and reproduced for FM readers their unanimous testimonies that the shots showed only scrub-land of an essentially English nature - not a rocky mountain in sight! Did you read that, Mark?
For your information, Mark, and for anyone else who wishes to express their doubts about my and Eddie's comprehensive revelations, do - at least - make sure you've actually read everything and then be objective rather than make a bland denunciation with zero reasoning or explanation. All (I think) of those 2015 articles are still here if you use the 'search' facility, Mark.
What I've written here is but a fraction of what I could retrieve from Eddie's and my articles and an even smaller fraction if I were to include the veritable dossier of information Eddie has in his possession. By the starkest contrast, all the blustering bull-in-a-china-shop Selman has is a pack of lies - from start to finish - that a six year old could recognise.
Eddie told me he'd deleted his article because he felt he just might have said too much, but I thought it was ok. However, on looking at the thread around six days later I found it still in place! Eddie assured me it had disappeared when he deleted it and was puzzled why it had reappeared, so I did it for him.
Mark g: there ARE pictures of many of Martin's fish available on this site; they are pictured laid-out on green grass. Best of all is the pic of Martin and his whacker, crouching in long grass typical of what you would find around any English lake or gravel pit. There are also pictures of Selman's infamous stark, cold, bare concrete power station outlet from where it is - and was - impossible to fish. There's even a shot of the very swim from where Selman reckons Martin caught the biggie AND a fascinating explanation of how Martin would have gone back to his car (parked just behind, in the road) for a wash and brush-up prior to being photographed. Pity then, isn't it, that the shot - so brashly and conclusively identified by Selman - is of Kingston General Hospital and NOT Lennox power station!
Do you see the problem here, Mark? At least ask yourself the question: how the hell would Selman know?
No pictures, Mark? Well how about the one of the shore at the mouth of Selman's outlet? Take another look. Do you honestly think it tallies with what you see in Martin's pics? Well? Do you? If you, somehow, think it might, have you read the geologists' reports and comments? Well? Have you?
As for evidence, Mark; I would agree that there's only a little more than there was first time around, but during that initial expose of Selman and the Carp Society, Eddie and I provided a huge amount of evidence. Didn't you read it, Mark? And didn't you read that I now fish the water that produced Martin's haul...the very same swims? No?
Witnesses? We told you that Chris Yates had seen ALL of the untouched pictures (like Eddie and I had) and had confidently stated his belief that the captures were made in this country. We also told you that club committee members 'Mac' McArthy, Micky Tilbrook, Gwynne Davis, John Sutton, John Amos and six others had seen the untouched pictures and reproduced for FM readers their unanimous testimonies that the shots showed only scrub-land of an essentially English nature - not a rocky mountain in sight! Did you read that, Mark?
For your information, Mark, and for anyone else who wishes to express their doubts about my and Eddie's comprehensive revelations, do - at least - make sure you've actually read everything and then be objective rather than make a bland denunciation with zero reasoning or explanation. All (I think) of those 2015 articles are still here if you use the 'search' facility, Mark.
What I've written here is but a fraction of what I could retrieve from Eddie's and my articles and an even smaller fraction if I were to include the veritable dossier of information Eddie has in his possession. By the starkest contrast, all the blustering bull-in-a-china-shop Selman has is a pack of lies - from start to finish - that a six year old could recognise.
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Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Sorry for the delay, Peter.
CoCo will almost certainly have viewed the article just recently having been told about it on facebook. As ever, we got the same Lennox lie and the familiar insult about Eddie and I sharing the same ward in a mental hospital. Very probably he chose not to retaliate because he knows his scurrilous fairy-story has been fairly and squarely exposed for all to see. Who knows...he may even have suffered a pang of conscience for destroying the reputation of one of our greatest anglers. He may even have wished to divert attention from his fellow Carp Society members, one of whom, Chris Ball, told the angling world that Martin and his carp would be remembered as George Michael is remembered for his importuning incident.
CoCo's greatest indictment remains his off-the-scale-absurd, 360 degree about-turn on where the huge carp came from: for 25 years until summer 2015 it was "one million per cent British Columbia" where there is "fantastic big-carp fishing".
Then, when informed by 6 Moor Hall A.C committee members and 7 others that they'd seen the original pics before Robin Monday had and had unanimously agreed that the photos showed typical English scrub-land and zero Rockies, he told us with characteristic bombast it was "one million per cent Lennox power station, Ontario [2,000 miles from British Colombia] which is a noted carp area. British Colombia ISN'T" (my capitals)
Incredibly and most frustratingly, not one of the dozens and dozens of thread-posters in the 2015 series of articles Eddie Benham and I wrote, picked-up on this! Despite our repeated attempts to get this acknowledged, all we got was pointless, bland, negative remarks; it seemed that no one had the ability to actually read and comprehend basic English.
But I think we're making progress.
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Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Sorry for the delay, Phil.
As far as I'm aware, it's not possible to retrieve threads; at least I've never been taught how to and, anyway, I'm not sure I'd want to resurrect some of those negative, ill-considered posts.
I'm not sure we ever established they were kayaks, Phil...just that there was a stack of coloured objects behind a chain-link fence in the background of one of the pics. Well, I can tell you that the chain-link fence is still there at least! No snow-capped mountains have appeared either.
When searching the archive here, you'll find that variations bring up different assortments of articles e.g 'Martin Gay' will bring up one lot, but 'Gay's 48 lb carp' will bring up another...or something like that; I can't keep going back to find out - it's 5 o'clock in the morning and I want to get back to bed!
no-one in particular
Well-known member
The evidence I was referring to was the actual evidence (hard evidence) that the fish was caught in this country or in Canada, as I far I can remember there was none, nothing that can nail it without any doubt anyway. The pictures I was referring to were the original unaltered ones that mysteriously got burned that might have proved it without any doubt. The location I referred to was that there is still no location that anyone can see for themselves which might prove it beyond doubt and the witnesses I was referring to where the ones who where there and witnessed the fish who refuse to come forward and, refuse to be named by anyone, they might have proved it beyond any doubt.
All of these would change the facts but all we are left with is the same convoluted arguments between you and this Selman bloke which will not prove anything without any doubt and I dont want to go all over that again with Eddie or yourself thanks very much so, I am out; for me anyway, I am sure there are others who have not heard it all before.
If you get any new evidence or recover any of the lost evidence I will listen as I am sure we all will but till then hence my "whats the point" comment". I am not going over all that old ground again which frankly did not convince many people much, it's too convoluted, hard facts, hard evidence is whats needed, location, pictures(and in this case, ones that show location in this country without any doubt as thats the question mark hanging over this, not doctored ones), and witnesses, proper witnesses. Thats the way it is in our game, you know that especially for such an important fish. And no need to shout at me or be condescending, I can read and hear well enough thanks. your frustration is self inflicted, not anyones fault but your own.
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I’m sorry Cliff but I really think it is out of order to make disparaging comments about a person who is not normally on FM. Hence the reason for my earlier question.
On the other subject, what happened to Eddie’s post that was previously on the thread after post number 10?
On the other subject, what happened to Eddie’s post that was previously on the thread after post number 10?
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Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
I've addressed that point, Peter. Scroll back.
Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Mark: the only way you will ever have 'proof' is if I or a friend catches the same mirror carp shown in one of Martin's articles. The fish will be rather old by now and, for all I know, its scale pattern may have changed. If it's caught and can be identified, you'll be among the first to know.
But you referred in your first post to 'evidence' (not proof) and you have been given sufficient first-class evidence to form a firm and reasoned verdict and that simply has to be that CoCo Selman invented the whole disgraceful and highly scurrilous stories because he was incandescent with jealousy. Yes, stories, plural. Again, this goes unaddressed by you, Mark, because you are clearly too busy being negative!
Can we have something from you, Mark, that confirms / endorses / reinforces / agrees with something Eddie and I have told you? That would be nice.
*Only the photographer, Martin's wife, witnessed the capture of the 50 lber, Mark. I thought this was well-known.
**...and I'm sure nobody's ever said the photographs were burned.
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eddiebenham
Well-known member
Hi Peter.........You are right, I did delete my post as on second thoughts I felt I might be having too much to say. However, it wasn't a dig at you as I said that I agreed with a lot you had to say, angling fame, carp society etc.
The carp society got it all wrong back then. According to Selman in June 2013 and I quote 'It is a FACT that when Martin caught those fish he was on holiday in British Columbia, Canada. It is my UNDERSTANDING that the part of the picture blocked out did indeed show a Canadian mountain landscape. These CONCLUSIONS were also accepted as FACT by the Carp Society leadership of the time and his claims were not accepted by us'. Peter, they didn't even see any of the photos.
But in 2015 he told us, and again I quote ' The fish were caught from a warm water outlet from Lennox Power Station on Lake Ontario Canada, bits of the power station are missed off the picture so as not to reveal the location. Martins relatives have always lived in Ontario and not B.C. and Ontario is a noted carp area , British Colombia isn't'. Selman goes from one million per cent B.C. to one million per cent Lennox Power Station. Amazing, and with no explanation as to how he got the FACTS wrong in the first place.
Peter, I can tell you that I saw many untouched photos and there were no Mountains or Power Stations in any of them, one hundred per cent (I do believe one million per cent is not possible).
The fact is that the Carp Society did not like Martin and he didn't like them either so it looks like they stitched him up.
The carp society got it all wrong back then. According to Selman in June 2013 and I quote 'It is a FACT that when Martin caught those fish he was on holiday in British Columbia, Canada. It is my UNDERSTANDING that the part of the picture blocked out did indeed show a Canadian mountain landscape. These CONCLUSIONS were also accepted as FACT by the Carp Society leadership of the time and his claims were not accepted by us'. Peter, they didn't even see any of the photos.
But in 2015 he told us, and again I quote ' The fish were caught from a warm water outlet from Lennox Power Station on Lake Ontario Canada, bits of the power station are missed off the picture so as not to reveal the location. Martins relatives have always lived in Ontario and not B.C. and Ontario is a noted carp area , British Colombia isn't'. Selman goes from one million per cent B.C. to one million per cent Lennox Power Station. Amazing, and with no explanation as to how he got the FACTS wrong in the first place.
Peter, I can tell you that I saw many untouched photos and there were no Mountains or Power Stations in any of them, one hundred per cent (I do believe one million per cent is not possible).
The fact is that the Carp Society did not like Martin and he didn't like them either so it looks like they stitched him up.
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no-one in particular
Well-known member
Nope, I am not going to be drawn into all this again; read my last post. Goodbye and thanks but no thanks if you know what I mean.
*Only the photographer, Martin's wife, witnessed the capture of the 50 lber, Mark. I thought this was well-known.
**...and I'm sure nobody's ever said the photographs were burned.
Which goes to show how much I remember although I thought there were two witnessess who no one would name and the pictures were burned in a house fire or something but; a lot has happened in my life since then so I expect my memory is not very good.and I don't want to be reminded again and I sure don't want to look it up. There was never any real resolution then and I doubt there will be this time. It's not even a very nice story, hasn't done anyone any good has it, or angling come to that. And I am sorry if thats too negative, but that's the way I feel, why pretend to be other and it's full of negativity anyway, still is, can't reveal this or that, so and so does not want to show thier hand and so on and so on. And I never got into the power station, grass, chain fence, kayaks and all of that, it just deflected from the real truth, if Mr Selman version of events are wrong it still leaves a fish that many will suspect of being caught in Canada and it will still have to be proved beyond all doubt to be accepted as a bone fida fish, something I think Cliff and Eddie fail to see. So, it's going to be same old-my apologies for getting involved again, my fault but I am going back to the real world of solid ground! however, good luck with it.
*Only the photographer, Martin's wife, witnessed the capture of the 50 lber, Mark. I thought this was well-known.
**...and I'm sure nobody's ever said the photographs were burned.
Which goes to show how much I remember although I thought there were two witnessess who no one would name and the pictures were burned in a house fire or something but; a lot has happened in my life since then so I expect my memory is not very good.and I don't want to be reminded again and I sure don't want to look it up. There was never any real resolution then and I doubt there will be this time. It's not even a very nice story, hasn't done anyone any good has it, or angling come to that. And I am sorry if thats too negative, but that's the way I feel, why pretend to be other and it's full of negativity anyway, still is, can't reveal this or that, so and so does not want to show thier hand and so on and so on. And I never got into the power station, grass, chain fence, kayaks and all of that, it just deflected from the real truth, if Mr Selman version of events are wrong it still leaves a fish that many will suspect of being caught in Canada and it will still have to be proved beyond all doubt to be accepted as a bone fida fish, something I think Cliff and Eddie fail to see. So, it's going to be same old-my apologies for getting involved again, my fault but I am going back to the real world of solid ground! however, good luck with it.
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eddiebenham
Well-known member
I am informed that Robin Monday has recently made some comments on facebook.
Well I don't do facebook or social media and as far as I know he has remained silent on the subject of Martins wonderful English carp catches. It was Robin of course that started this miscarriage of justice in the first place so instead of dancing to Selmans tune maybe he could respond on F.M.
Maybe he could provide us with the PROOF( that the carp were caught in Canada) that he said he had and was prepared to give to Tim Paisley.
If any of you are on facebook maybe you could make him aware of this post, although he will probably be informed by you know who.
I am thinking that as Robin Monday has now chipped in on facebook I could ask him
‘The truth died with him, did it, Robin? I don't think so because you know the truth, don't you? Why don't you come clean? You know the truth.
Why was your original story altered to suit the Carp Society stitch-up of Martin. According to Selman you were Martin’s ‘best mate’. Really? I don't think so. Best mates don't do that.
Why did you let the Rockies idea go on for 25 years when it was obviously a fabrication? You never mentioned any mountains did you! All you mentioned to Paisley was a fence and a notice – board.
If you knew Martin so well then how come you allowed British Colombia to be put up as the place Martin fished when his relatives actually lived in Ontario?
So 29 years later, Selman still says it was Lennox Power Station. Read my articles Robin. You can't fish there and you never could. Even if you’d tried, security would certainly have moved you on. Anyway L. Ontario in that area is and was only accessible by boat and there are no launching places anywhere near. You need a boat licence and a fishing licence as well.
I got this information direct from the man whose office overlooks the outlet (as well as some photos). They were published with my articles for all to see.
Should you not have advised the Carp Society that they had the wrong location?
Do the decent thing man and put matters right.
Well I don't do facebook or social media and as far as I know he has remained silent on the subject of Martins wonderful English carp catches. It was Robin of course that started this miscarriage of justice in the first place so instead of dancing to Selmans tune maybe he could respond on F.M.
Maybe he could provide us with the PROOF( that the carp were caught in Canada) that he said he had and was prepared to give to Tim Paisley.
If any of you are on facebook maybe you could make him aware of this post, although he will probably be informed by you know who.
I am thinking that as Robin Monday has now chipped in on facebook I could ask him
‘The truth died with him, did it, Robin? I don't think so because you know the truth, don't you? Why don't you come clean? You know the truth.
Why was your original story altered to suit the Carp Society stitch-up of Martin. According to Selman you were Martin’s ‘best mate’. Really? I don't think so. Best mates don't do that.
Why did you let the Rockies idea go on for 25 years when it was obviously a fabrication? You never mentioned any mountains did you! All you mentioned to Paisley was a fence and a notice – board.
If you knew Martin so well then how come you allowed British Colombia to be put up as the place Martin fished when his relatives actually lived in Ontario?
So 29 years later, Selman still says it was Lennox Power Station. Read my articles Robin. You can't fish there and you never could. Even if you’d tried, security would certainly have moved you on. Anyway L. Ontario in that area is and was only accessible by boat and there are no launching places anywhere near. You need a boat licence and a fishing licence as well.
I got this information direct from the man whose office overlooks the outlet (as well as some photos). They were published with my articles for all to see.
Should you not have advised the Carp Society that they had the wrong location?
Do the decent thing man and put matters right.
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Sounds to me like Mr Selman has really wound you up Cliff and your clearly gagging for posts on this thread so ok here you go, I’ll throw you a tit bit…
Is Yvonne aware of this is all being dragged up again ? By all accounts it sounded like she was fed up of it all and just wanted it to go away. Here’s a thought - maybe someone should go and knock on her door and show her this & all the other threads & perhaps she would be so pig sick of seeing her late husband’s name dragged through the mud yet again, & so publicly, that she will magically find the cardboard box in the upstairs cupboard with the photos and « un-dispose » of them for all to see.
Cor ! … that would be great wouldn’t it. Get a magnifying glass on that cream colored sign. One things for sure, someone would be left with major egg on their face !
I wonder who ?
Is Yvonne aware of this is all being dragged up again ? By all accounts it sounded like she was fed up of it all and just wanted it to go away. Here’s a thought - maybe someone should go and knock on her door and show her this & all the other threads & perhaps she would be so pig sick of seeing her late husband’s name dragged through the mud yet again, & so publicly, that she will magically find the cardboard box in the upstairs cupboard with the photos and « un-dispose » of them for all to see.
Cor ! … that would be great wouldn’t it. Get a magnifying glass on that cream colored sign. One things for sure, someone would be left with major egg on their face !
I wonder who ?
I have been reading some of this and the funny thing is, I had never, ever heard of the Gaymire fish or this controversy. Nothing at all.
And the next thing is, I find it all rather pathetic, it was a fish, sometime in the past, that may or may not have been caught, somewhere in this country, possibly or not.
Get over it, move on, it isn't that important or even interesting, it was just a fish a bloke caught.
And the next thing is, I find it all rather pathetic, it was a fish, sometime in the past, that may or may not have been caught, somewhere in this country, possibly or not.
Get over it, move on, it isn't that important or even interesting, it was just a fish a bloke caught.
flightliner
Well-known member
Cliff, it's admirable that you are trying to defend your friend but maybe it's time to let it go.
That or let the judiciary's decide where concrete proof provided by both parties (if that's at all possible) will decide the truth.
That or let the judiciary's decide where concrete proof provided by both parties (if that's at all possible) will decide the truth.
steve2
Well-known member
Interesting that if you look at pictures of Richard Walkers record carp you will see different backgrounds. So may be he didn't catch that carp at Redmire Pool he might have been in Canada.
Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
Actually, flightliner, my main objective now isn't to defend Martin but to get an apology from Selman, Monday, Tim Paisley, Chris Ball and all those within the Carp Society who conspired to pervert carp-fishing history and to smear the impeccable credentials of an honest and truly outstanding angler. Those who've made a point of reading, absorbing and evaluating everything from both sides on this matter will have no doubt as to the pedigree of both the fish and its detractors; they cannot have reached any other conclusion.
Mark g's insistence on 'proof' of the 50lber's origins kind of misses the point. We will never have any concrete 'proof' and that's the whole point! What we do have is the next best thing in the form of the strongest evidence - evidence that would surely secure a conviction in any court of law within minutes.
Interesting, isn't it, that even at this stage, a veteran of this debacle like you, flightliner, STILL fails to recognise the infantile absurdity of Selman's 25 year conversion to a wholly different story! So has Philip, so has molehill and so have so many others...it's truly astonishing!
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Cliff Hatton
Well-known member
I have contacted Robin Monday for his comments: with any luck he'll man-up and come clean.
Edited 11.18 hrs 16.9.2019.
Edited 11.18 hrs 16.9.2019.
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bennygesserit
Well-known member
I dont think its appropriate that you use your position as Forum editor to personally attack people
This forum has been very harmonious lately I understand your desire to defend your mate but please stop using Our Forum as a vehicle to do so
This forum has been very harmonious lately I understand your desire to defend your mate but please stop using Our Forum as a vehicle to do so
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Ray Roberts
Well-known member
eddiebenham
Well-known member
From Phillips Post
Get a magnifying glass on that cream colored sign. One things for sure, someone would be left with major egg on their face !
I wonder who ?[/QUOTE]
Hi Phillip....................The photos no longer exist and if they did then the sign would not reveal anything.
I saw a lot of the untouched photos (maybe all of them) and the one that showed the sign was with Martin crouching in the foreground with the huge English Common. Behind him at the top of the bank was the fence with the sign on it.
The sign appeared to be on the other side of the fence and facing the water so anything on the sign would be readable when on the other side facing the water. At a guess I would say it probably only said 'Danger - Deep Water'. One thing I can assure you is that there were NO Mountains and NO Power Stations in any of the many untouched photos I saw. You can ask any one of the dozen or so who saw the photos and they will tell you that it looked just like an English Lake.
Anyone that is except Robin Monday................Strange that don't you think ?
Get a magnifying glass on that cream colored sign. One things for sure, someone would be left with major egg on their face !
I wonder who ?[/QUOTE]
Hi Phillip....................The photos no longer exist and if they did then the sign would not reveal anything.
I saw a lot of the untouched photos (maybe all of them) and the one that showed the sign was with Martin crouching in the foreground with the huge English Common. Behind him at the top of the bank was the fence with the sign on it.
The sign appeared to be on the other side of the fence and facing the water so anything on the sign would be readable when on the other side facing the water. At a guess I would say it probably only said 'Danger - Deep Water'. One thing I can assure you is that there were NO Mountains and NO Power Stations in any of the many untouched photos I saw. You can ask any one of the dozen or so who saw the photos and they will tell you that it looked just like an English Lake.
Anyone that is except Robin Monday................Strange that don't you think ?
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