If commercials never existed

[Keith M]

There's a propensity of anglers who will admit to fishing club waters, strange when most club waters are a dug out hole with stocked fish even though sparsely stocked they are commercial in all but name. IE a hole dug and stocked with fish.

I don’t really agree about your description of ‘most club waters being commercial in all but name’ rayner (ie. holes dug out and stocked with fish); that’s definitely pushing it a bit

My definition of commercial fisheries and the definition that is often put forward by anglers that I know are:

Waters (existing or purposely created) that provide some sort of income for the person(s) that own or lease them by taking money from customers in return for them being able to fish their water or waters; and which are usually heavily stocked (often with fish like f1’s etc) to appeal to and attract their customers, and often (but not in every case) with facilities like toilets, cafes and tackle & bait sales on site.

Yes there is a minority of club waters that may have been dug out from scratch in the distant past (like estate lakes and canals etc.) but the vast majority of the club waters (that I have fished over the many years that I’ve fished; and the many clubs that I’ve been a member of) have been naturally created lakes, ponds, rivers, streams etc. and non of these adhere to your description of ‘most club waters’.

However some of my club waters do now have toilets on them and facilities to rest and make hot drinks but the fisheries are not there to solely provide anyone with an income of any sort and any incidental profits go straight back to the fisheries to maintain and improve them for the club members; not to provide anyone with an income like a commercial venture does (or is supposed to).

Keith

 

[Philip]

This thread would become allot easier if people just started naming the water.

If they are already well known then its hardly going to ruin anyones fishing. People can decide for themselves if they consider it a "commercial".

Given some of the very specific criteria people have in mind i would not think there can be that many that tick all boxes.

 

[steve2]

Are there that many natural waters all the waters I fish have netted and restocked over the years. I can't think of one of my clubs waters apart from possibly rivers that haven't been stocked for various reasons but even those have few stocking over the years. So not really natural they have been man made. Most of the river anglers on here are fishing for fish that were stocked, especially barbel anglers so they are not fishing for natural barbel. Just barbel placed in the rivers for anglers to catch.
So are your 'natural' man made fisheries much different to manmade commercials.

 

[mikench]

The EA restock our rivers. Does that make them commercials? Of course not. The whole proposition is preposterous . I judge a commercial by what I’ve seen. Too many anglers side by side using fishery pellets casting to artificial islands or aerators for F1’s . Matches played out day after day with full keep nets. Keep nets are forbidden on all my waters. I don’t need to hmm and arr about whether the venue is a commercial or not and I’m not even fishing there . Not for me. Maybe I’ll think differently in 10 years time but for the moment I’m content with the waters my 3 club memberships offer, blanks included.

 

[no-one in particular]

The EA restock our rivers. Does that make them commercials? Of course not. The whole proposition is preposterous . I judge a commercial by what I’ve seen. Too many anglers side by side using fishery pellets casting to artificial islands or aerators for F1’s . Matches played out day after day with full keep nets. Keep nets are forbidden on all my waters. I don’t need to hmm and arr about whether the venue is a commercial or not and I’m not even fishing there . Not for me. Maybe I’ll think differently in 10 years time but for the moment I’m content with the waters my 3 club memberships offer, blanks included.

I have never seen a commercial like that. I mean that is the classic view of them but I honestly have never seen one myself, in part maybe, I have seen a match lake on one where two matches are fished a week but not every day and there are 8 other lakes on the venue where anyone can fish anytime match or not. I have seen some where anglers are sat side by side but mainly on weekends and then some that have plenty of separated secluded swims. I don't know about aerators, I think I have seen them used somewhere, I have seen all sorts of baits tried not just pellets, I made my own baits or used traditional baits myself, F1's are a main feature on some lakes but I have seen plenty of mixed lakes and a few non carp lakes as well and not necessarily over stocked. Artificial islands-I don't know what one would like but certainly not adorned with plastic trees and plants only natural plants and trees. And I have fished quite a lot of these places all over kent and sussex covering about a 100 mile radius. They include Horam Manor, Frant Lakes, Wylands, Rye Nook, Iden Fishery, Springwood fishery, Three lakes Boreham, Monk lakes, Westfield fishery and quite a few more. Look them up and see if all they offer is what you describe. I didn't like all of them but non of them would be described as mud holes full of pigs either, the classic perception, this is what they are all like or so I am being told every-time commies are mentioned so; how come so many don't fit that description at all, damn odd that!
I am sure you have seen what you describe Mike but believe me there are plenty of places that are not like that.
I won't say anymore, I have been over this ground so many times and this myth will be perpetuated for eternity I am sure so there is no point me trying to dispel it anymore.

 

[Keith M]

Are there that many natural waters all the waters I fish have netted and restocked over the years. I can't think of one of my clubs waters apart from possibly rivers that haven't been stocked for various reasons but even those have few stocking over the years. So not really natural they have been man made. Most of the river anglers on here are fishing for fish that were stocked, especially barbel anglers so they are not fishing for natural barbel. Just barbel placed in the rivers for anglers to catch.
So are your 'natural' man made fisheries much different to manmade commercials.

Because a water has been stocked that doesn’t mean that it’s a man made water; a man made water is one that has been dug out by man and filled with water and doesn’t relate to it’s stocking

Water that has been stocked also has little to do with being a commercial or not either; however Commercial fisheries nearly always have more fish to the acre than more naturally stocked waters.

And when people say ‘a Natural water’ they mean a water with a more ‘natural’ stocking level, unlike Commercial fisheries which normally have much higher stocking density’s when compared to waters with more ‘natural’ stocking density’s.

I don’t think anyone is dissing Commercial fisheries, they provide good sport for many, were only descibing the differences between them and non commercial fisheries and why we prefer one or the other that’s all.

Keith

 

[Philip]

I have never seen a commercial like that. I mean that is the classic view of them but I honestly have never seen one myself, in part maybe, I have seen a match lake on one where two matches are fished a week but not every day and there are 8 other lakes on the venue where anyone can fish anytime match or not. I have seen some where anglers are sat side by side but mainly on weekends and then some that have plenty of separated secluded swims. I don't know about aerators, I think I have seen them used somewhere, I have seen all sorts of baits tried not just pellets, I made my own baits or used traditional baits myself, F1's are a main feature on some lakes but I have seen plenty of mixed lakes and a few non carp lakes as well and not necessarily over stocked. Artificial islands-I don't know what one would like but certainly not adorned with plastic trees and plants only natural plants and trees. And I have fished quite a lot of these places all over kent and sussex covering about a 100 mile radius. They include Horam Manor, Frant Lakes, Wylands, Rye Nook, Iden Fishery, Springwood fishery, Three lakes Boreham, Monk lakes, Westfield fishery and quite a few more. Look them up and see if all they offer is what you describe. I didn't like all of them but non of them would be described as mud holes full of pigs either, the classic perception, this is what they are all like or so I am being told every-time commies are mentioned so; how come so many don't fit that description at all, damn odd that!
I am sure you have seen what you describe Mike but believe me there are plenty of places that are not like that.
I won't say anymore, I have been over this ground so many times and this myth will be perpetuated for eternity I am sure so there is no point me trying to dispel it anymore.

I totally dig were your coming from Mark, I too have never come across that sort of extreme/classic type of commercial either athough they obviously exist. I know some of those lakes you name in the south East and some of them are nice places indeed and I am sure the fishing is not given. I have considered many of them as "commercials" too but it seems that this view is probably not shared by all the posters and therein lies the issue that no one has the same vision of it.

I think part of the confusion is that the term has morhped somewhat since the orginal days when it was first used. Nowadays I get the feeling its applied to allot more waters than it would have been back then.

Here is one that may spilt opinion , a water I am sure allot of people will know - Bury Hill. I wonder who would consider that a "commercial" and who wouldnt.

 

[sam vimes]

Here is one that may spilt opinion , a water I am sure allot of people will know - Bury Hill. I wonder who would consider that a "commercial" and who wouldnt.

Whilst there's no doubt at all that it is utterly commercialised, I wouldn't call it a "commie fishery". No match type commie I know of would be home to predators of any greater stature than perch. As Bury Hill is home to zander and pike, it's not what I'd refer to as a commie. In a similar vein, the likes of Linear and Bluebell are absolutely commercial ventures, but they aren't commie fisheries. Not being desperately familiar with Kent and Sussex, the only name in markg's list I recognise as definitely being an out and out commie is Monk Lakes. Frankly, if I've heard of a fishery in Kent or Sussex, it's because it's a well known big fish venue or it's a match type commie that makes the angling press regularly. Most day ticket stillwaters don't make the press, or match results pages with great enough regularity to even register with me.

As I said earlier in the thread, when I also named several, "commies" are the type of places that are capable of hosting at least a qualifier for the likes of Fishomania. They are usually selected because they can facilitate the numbers required, big match weights and pegs that are, subject to the vagaries of the weather, largely very evenly competitive. Plenty of fairly standard day ticket still waters can't do any of those three things. However, it seems that many folks are referring to them all as commies, for no more reason than them selling day tickets.

 

[tigger]

I don't think it's difficult to identify a commercial water.
Most are scrapes in a field, filled with water and then filled with fish. The majority are no more than a few feet deep and uniformed across the water. They often dig them in a kidney shape, an oblong shape similar to a scale electric track and have an island in the middle.
Some commercials are more sofisticated than others, having toilets, shops etc. Commercials have manicured banks, platforms, easy access etc etc.
There are commercials which were once lovely wild waters containing the normal species expected, then some scrote bought them and transformed them, clearing the banks, making platforms and interfeering with what had taken many years for mother nature to create. Then the new owners either net out many of the native fish before stocking the waters, or just stock them with insane numbers of carp!
Once crystal clear waters are now similar in colour to the purpose built scrapes in a field...muddy puddles!

A wild water is a million miles away from a commercial, very often having overgrown banks and difficult access. They have natural sustainable levels of fish which are harder to catch because they have natural food to go at and haven't got to compete anything like as hard to get their food. For me, I get a much better feeling of accomplishment catching a few wild fish of whatever size from a wild water than I do catching a starving goldfish from a commie.

 

[peterjg]

Sorry Mikench, Tigger and Keith M - although I totally agree with your posts you are wasting your time! Rayner even when he is wrong is ALWAYS right!

 

[Philip]

I wouldn't call it a "commie fishery". No match type commie I know of would be home to predators of any greater stature than perch. As Bury Hill is home to zander and pike, it's not what I'd refer to as a commie. In a similar vein, the likes of Linear and Bluebell are absolutely commercial ventures, but they aren't commie fisheries

I suspected you would be one of the people who did not consider it a commie. Your criteria appear to be the most strict as to what is a commie ,not saying your wrong but I don’t think it’s the average outlook nowadays.

I am not so up to date with the UK scene but I would think the number of waters that fit with your criteria in the country could probably be counted on 2 (maybe 3..) hands.

The good news in this for all those people who think their fishing is being slated by others is that they are probably not even fishing a commie in your eyes. Whether that view is shared by others is a differet question of course.

 

[S-Kippy]

Bury Hill is a bit of an oddity. I don’t regard it as a true commie but there is an indisputable air of commercial fishery about parts of it. The carp lake eg is not much more than a scrape in the ground stocked with lumps and Bonds lake is an out and out small/med carp water....and very often the busiest lake. It’s really only the Old Lake at BH that fails the commie test in my books....though the whole place doesn’t have the feel of a true commercial fishery.....at least it is very different to waters down here which imo tick all the commercial fishery boxes. Funnily enough those are the waters you’ll rarely see me at though I fish BH often...or rather I did until this year. Clearly there is a difference in my eyes between a commie and BH which is a reasonably well run day ticket water albeit with commie like elements.

 

[no-one in particular]

Nothing odd about Bury Hill to me, a typical average commie going by the description, a beautiful place to fish offering varied fishing, one a lovely lake with tench, roach etc in it with very few carp which is where I would love to spend a day. Toilets, shop, easy parking, secluded swims, tuition for youngsters etc etc. Not a mud hole in sight; has anyone ever fished one rather than describe one??? They must have fished one somewhere, I cant find one for love or money.
I think the only reason there is any reluctance to call some of these commies because in reality they would love to fish there or they would have to admit commies look like great places and we just can't have that can we.
If the 10 I listed all belonged to one club and this one that would be the best club in the country by a mile.

 

[no-one in particular]

Bury Hill is a bit of an oddity. I don’t regard it as a true commie but there is an indisputable air of commercial fishery about parts of it. The carp lake eg is not much more than a scrape in the ground stocked with lumps and Bonds lake is an out and out small/med carp water....and very often the busiest lake. It’s really only the Old Lake at BH that fails the commie test in my books....though the whole place doesn’t have the feel of a true commercial fishery.....at least it is very different to waters down here which imo tick all the commercial fishery boxes. Funnily enough those are the waters you’ll rarely see me at though I fish BH often...or rather I did until this year. Clearly there is a difference in my eyes between a commie and BH which is a reasonably well run day ticket water albeit with commie like elements.

Is this the one you mean, how can that be described as a just scrape in the ground. Sure your thinking of Bury Hill.

 

[steve2]

My nearest water is an out and out commie even after 20 years they are still just holes in the ground, stuffed full of carp and fished 12 hours a day 365 days a year. Catches over 200lb are always on the cards with 5-hour match weight near 400lbs. But it's always packed so it what some want

All fishing whether club, commercial, day ticket or syndicate is now, no matter where is aimed at catching fish every time you go to keep the customer happy. So you could say every fishing place is now artificial.

I remember fishing Bury Hill back in the 70's when it was just the old lake it was a mud heap after rain so it certainly changed since I last fished it.

 

[S-Kippy]

That's the Old Lake at Bury Hill.....the others dont look anything like as picturesque and it was the carp lake ( Temple) that i referred to as a scrape....which it is by comparison to the Old Lake. Milton and Bonds are small excavated lakes/ponds. Neither is very big.

And dont be fooled by that picture. It can be very pretty but that is a very cleverly composed shot and it can also be a muddy hole. The boathouse has been replaced by a bungalow that the owner lives in and a lot of the favoured swims are now no longer fishable. It is still a nice place to fish but it is nowhere near the fishery it was even when I first started fishing it around 10-12 years ago..the Old Lake in particular.I still fish it now and then for zander ( though they are going backwards rapidly) and I fish Milton in the spring for crucians and tench but I've not been down this year due to the hordes of anglers fishing it and the battering its been getting which the crucian will not tolerate. You have to wade through hordes of bream to get a single tench from the Old Lake and the pike have all but disappeared. Living on past glories I'm afraid.

 

[rayner]

One thing I've discovered is that everyone has their idea, according to peterjg, I'm just wrong but think I'm always right. Interesting thanks for the Pete.
The waters closest to my home that I've fished over 60yrs ago, Aston Park and Aston Springs, OK they've both included a few new lakes but the main venues on both have been there for to my knowledge over 60yrs.
Aston Park is the one with F1s it's true that fishery is stuffed with all manner of species and can achieve big weights, nowhere near the 400lb that's been mentioned but 100lb nets by some mostly the venue experts, a loose term for someone who has the fishery worked out. It was used for a fishomania qualifier on that occasion the venue fished poorly as fisheries can around South Yorkshire.
We all know about the misconception that all fisheries geared to match fishing are stuffed with F1s so all anglers can bag 200lb nets.
I notice markg is sharp enough to understand not all commercial style fisheries are typical of what those who object to how these places are perceived.
The stretch of the Shannon at Lanesborough know as the hot water stretch is reall stuffed with fish, so much so that when we went to fish it anglers were no more than 2mtr apart, the bank was lined with blokes all casting like metronomes. Just goes to show idiotic anglers can be. This was on a short stretch from the river to the power station.
Generally, when every peg is taken on a venue it's a club match a case of owners grabbing every penny on offer. On the other hand, open matches are on the whole less congested normally every second peg is left vacant giving the anglers more room. Probably a similar distance when fishing river matches.
On the HDYG thread pictures of catches noticeably on club waters have a similar look to fisheries locally with stagings the catches appear similar with all the same species. Shortage of funds perhaps dictates the stocking level.
All in all, you either are for or against, just by reading posts you can see who has a conceived idea that they are stuck with strange when they are only ideas that are far from true, OK some are exactly how they describe but the majority are certainly not.
There seems far more slavering on this thread than normal with just perceived ideas rather than how it really is. No matter how we all think like it or not we are all in the same game.

 

[john step]

Rayner. I fished the hot water stretch at Lanesborough in the 80s. Certainly a lot of fish there.
I did hear that Ireland are going to stop peat fired power stations so that will put the kibosh on that!

 

[no-one in particular]

So, I guess I will just have to stop thinking of all those waters I have fished as commercials, if it is capable of producing 100lb/200lb weights without really trying, full of F1's and looks like a shithole then it is a commercial, As I have never fished a water like that I couldn't have fished one. Its going to be a bit strange getting used to the idea but there you go.
Maybe we should just invent a scale for all fisheries, 1-10.
Horam Manor 8, Frant Lakes 10, Wylands 7, Rye Nook 6, Iden Fishery 6, Springwood fishery 8, Three lakes Boreham 7, Monk lakes 5, Westfield fishery 6.
Perhaps that would be a better way to perceive them instead of just labeling them all with the dreaded commercial word which no ones seems to agree on what one is anyway. Lifes a breeze.

 

[mikench]

Is 1 poor and 10 good?