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@Clive

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I found my Holy Grail of cyprinid bait today in the form of Pigeon Peas. 22% protein, 6 B vitamins and €2 a kilo. I have been looking for something like this for years. I couldn't justify buying a 25kg sack. However, today I dropped on a 5kg bag that will do me all summer.

Some of those peas steamed and mashed along with some milled maize and tinned hemp seeds should make a great spod mix.
 

peterjg

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I must admit that I find trying out different baits fascinating. Some anglers say that flavours have no effect, I just can't agree at all - but there are so many variables! For instance, generally it is better to use only a little flavouring as too much will repel fish. It's time consuming to get amounts right, especially on lightly stocked or difficult waters. Water temperature can also make a big difference. I believe the old saying - spicy in cold and sweet in warm is not a bad idea - usually. Archie Braddock's book Fantastic Feeder Fishing is now around 30 years old, it's a great book, I remember when I first read it I couldn't put it down - try and get a copy if you can? Certainly some baits and flavours work on some waters but not on others. Braddock later wrote that some flavours could be designed to mostly appeal to certain species, I am sure that this is possible.
 

@Clive

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I also find this fascinating especially when taking into account the baits recommended by our angling ancestors. Many of the recent innovations can be traced back to bait recipes from the 1500's. Vitamin B in its varied forms and dairy produce feature in many recipes. Also, protein contents of 12% to 15% rather than the typically 30% plus in today's baits.

I have better success with fermented or pre digested groundbait for all cyprinids. I really do think that it makes a difference. I also like to make a spod mix or mix for inclusion in groundbait to attract fish and keep them hunting for the feed. Here I am mainly talking about ground feeding species like barbel and river carp. For that I use hemp, milled and whole maize and a mixture of pellets and crushed boilies designed to break down at different rates. What I don't want to do is induce preoccupation so I ensure that there is a great variety of sizes, shapes and scent / flavours with high value items being on the small size. That is why I think that the pigeon peas will add to the mix. I have used chickpeas for this, but they are too expensive and have slightly less protein content. The pigeon peas, softened and crushed will improve better blend imo. I might even add some squatts now thanks to Philip I have a supplier who allows a mixture of grubs in the same tub and price. You can take a small plastic bag and put some large maggots in for hookbait then fill the rest of the tub with pinkies or squatts.
 

peterjg

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Alan Whitty, totally agree! How can a fish know if a bait is high protein or what is now termed HNV (High Nutritional Value); I know the theory that they know instinctively what is good for them but with loads of anglers chucking in lots of little round balls how can they possibly choose to eat the right ones? For years I had my own rowing boat on a clearish gravel pit and could easily monitor what was being eaten overnight by rowing out to my baited areas to check. If I put out different baits the previous day, for instance, bits of garlic sausage, sweetcorn, boilies, sometimes all the boilies were gone or all the corn or whatever. The carp knew what they wanted and were really picky but they didn't know how much protein or not they were eating. This went on for years!
 

@Clive

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I'm afraid that I don't agree with you on this. Fish and other animals instinctively know what is best for them. That is why carnivores eat the livers and digested remnants of the stomachs first. Fish like other animals need a balanced diet and the fish farmers realised a long time ago that animal protein added weight to fish quicker than a pure vegetable diet. Fish can only obtain animal protein from other fish, crustaceans and insects. And the protein content of these tops out at around 15% Unless they find dead animals, insects, etc it requires effort to find it. Fish cannot grow or reproduce without sufficient protein. They need it and they will search for it.

Maize is very attractive to fish. I have seen small carp beach themselves to get to grains spilled from a duck feeder. As a hook bait it has resulted in some of my heaviest carp and barbel. And it forms the bulk of my ground baits and loose feed in various forms. But it is enhanced by adding other ingredients of higher nutritional values. A one-stop shop so to speak. The scent of maize doesn't carry as far as pellets or broken boilies. And seeds like hemp or micro pellets are harder to find in the gravel so it has to be worth the fish's efforts to keep searching for it. By using a mix that includes high attractant baits like pellets and broken boilies along with longer enduring grains and pulses you can attract fish from further away and keep the those fish in your swim for longer.
 

nottskev

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I'm afraid that I don't agree with you on this. Fish and other animals instinctively know what is best for them.

That's an interesting idea, and it seems reasonable to assume nature has its act together. Where do you find information on this theme? I just tried to google it, but no matter how I phrase it or juggle the key words, I get results about the nutritional value of fish in our diets!
 

@Clive

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That's an interesting idea, and it seems reasonable to assume nature has its act together. Where do you find information on this theme? I just tried to google it, but no matter how I phrase it or juggle the key words, I get results about the nutritional value of fish in our diets!
There are lots of studies regards this, but many are pay per view and I have to go cap in hand to some veterinarian friends who have paid access. They send me pdf files. There is one article freely available. Look at Para 2.1

 

nottskev

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There are lots of studies regards this, but many are pay per view and I have to go cap in hand to some veterinarian friends who have paid access. They send me pdf files. There is one article freely available. Look at Para 2.1

Cheers, Clive. I'm taking notes. I like the starting point: .....fish have "Quality Dietary Insight". They're smarter than most of us then. :)
 

peterjg

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If there are two identical boilies next to each other which smell and taste the same but one is high protein and the other is high carbohydrate how does a fish know which will do it most good?
If fish need a balanced diet (requiring both protein and carbohydrate, etc) why should a high protein boilie (theoretically) be more attractive? Sometimes I am more successful catching roach on worms (protein) but equally sometimes bread (carbohydrate) works best? For decades I made my own boilies and in actual practice found absolutely no difference in results between high protein and high carbohydrate boilies. I wish I had it would have made things much easier. I have done over 1200 nights fishing for carp so I think that gives the bait theory a fair trial?
 

@Clive

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You have to consider the dietery aspect along with the environmental situation. Captive fish may have little or no choice so feed purely on hunger. Other fish may find certain essentials hard to find so would appreciate baits that contain them. Also, habit is a part of the jigsaw. Carp can become preoccupied with whatever is being presented to them every day. Addicted like what happens with cat and dog treats. A few years ago the world carp fishing contest was held in Bulgaria. They closed off the venue weeks before the competition and every day at the same time the match was due to start they fed the carp a specific type of boilie a specific distance from the bank. Naturally only the Bulgarian anglers were privvy to the information and the baits so did much better than they were expected to. And that leads us to the aspect of blown baits where fish develop an adverse reaction to certain combinations of colour, size, shape and flavour or scent. So a fish might reject what it would normally prefer.

It isn't a simple puzzle. But, in my circumstances of naive fish that may not have experienced let alone become reliant on baits I know what works best. I spend a lot of time looking into rivers.
 

@Clive

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You said that fish cannot differentiate between food based on nutritional value. There are many scientific studies that have found that they can. And as you included in your post above; some carnivores seek out the highest nutritional value part of a carcase and eat it first. They can only do that if they can discriminate the nutritional values of each part of the carcase. You have proved the point that you disagree with.
 

nottskev

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I read the article Clive put up. I don't find it difficult to accept that wild creatures are able to seek out foods that will provide what they need to keep their systems in balance. We're endlessly discovering that nature has evolved processes that we yet only partially understand with our science and logic. We create disputable intellectual accounts; nature evolves intricate systems that actually work. A basic point in the article: fish eat stuff and digestion "analyses" it, at the same time sending messages to the brain about its dietary properties which influence future feeding. That's what prompts fish to differentiate between foods available, The baits we put in front of fish are only an addition to what they have learned to eat to balance their metabolism etc. But it's still not surprising if they can judge how worthwhile they are from the signals given off by their ingredients. How fish react to a flavoured boilie may be vitally important to an angler. But deriving an overall view of fish, food and nutrition from it may be like building a model of human dietary needs and preferences on some people's reactions to a chocolate eclair or a tube of Pringles.
 

peterjg

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Clive and Nottskev, I readily admit that to me it's all a great mystery and I wish that I understood it better. In actual fishing I was unable to prove that high protein (HNV) baits worked better than standard semolina based boilies. Just to confuse things further one of the best carp baits I used were tiger nuts BUT they worked much better if I put a piece of flavoured cork between two tiger nuts on the hair - tiger nuts are not a HNV bait but was the attraction in the flavoured cork? Or do carp just enjoy chewing up tiger nuts in preference to boilies? I loved messing around with carp baits, where I mainly carp fished though the water was 50 acres with only about 4 carp per acre so it took an awful lot of time and effort to prove theories.
 

@Clive

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It isn't the hook bait that I think is important. I put a lot of time and effort in finding the right locations. And the next thing is to keep any fish in the swim. That is far more important than having the 'right' hook bait. If I can get barbel browsing then they will take whatever is there. Same with carp except that carp use their sense of sight more than barbel. So popped up or more visible bait is more likely to be taken quickly. The barbel I have seen feeding are like a ploughman. Once they find loose feed they just travel upstream deviating hardly at all until the food runs out. Then they drift back downstream and start again up a different track. Small particles like micro pellets and hemp that lodge in the gravel and stones will keep them troughing long after the larger particles have been eaten. Crushed boilies, 6mm pellets, maize and other grains are more visible and more likely to be snaffled by chub, bream and carp.

Most of my fishing is done in daytime for a few hours, six at the most, and on large rivers.
 

nottskev

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Peter, I wouldn't dream of contradicting or even questioning your findings, after all that time and investigation on carp baits, I was only saying I don't find the idea of fish "sensing" quality food matching their dietary needs at the time difficult to accept. What an angler can catch on in a particular time and place, given all the variables of food available, baits fish have or haven't met before, or become wary of, levels of competition for any food between fish, the extra "spin" of different flavours, colours etc, though, may not lead to valid generalisations about what works better/best beyond that time on that water, and doesn't necessarily contradict the idea that wild creatures "know" what to feed on to meet their needs at any given time.

As someone who usually goes out with a couple of pints of maggots, casters, pellets or corn or bread or meat and makes limited use of flavours etc, I've no real room to talk, and I appreciate that carp anglers put great thought into bait ingredients etc. I'm inclined to think, and the scientific lit seems to supports this, that fish are more likely to be interested in baits of more rather than less nutritional quality, but the grail of an irresistible or inevitably successful bait strikes me as a chimera because so may other factors mean a bait is not simply a food, and all the factors of angling must shape the fish's reaction to it or readiness to take it. Of course, there are special factors in play when the fish you're after are long-lived, experienced, much fished for and exposed to lots of bait, many of which may be associated with danger. That's very different from how fish in more natural contexts find their food.
 

Philip

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A forum post about HNV cant really do it justice as its such a huge subject. However I think its fairly well documented that animals will seek out food sources to fulfil specific dietry requirements..Moutain goats scaling almost vertical dam walls to get to salt deposits, Rabbits licking Creosote fences and so on. I think I read somewhere as well about how they poisoned some dead sheep and let the wolves eat it. Next time they put dead sheep out the wolves were pacing round but not taking it so animals will also learn by association whats not so good for them as well.

In a fishing context & as a very general rule (& I stress VERY General) I would look to low nutritional value high flavour baits for short term/Instant results so for one off trips to a water I know nothing about for example …your basically trying to trick the fish into taking it, its like an open packet of pringles…a few are moreish but a load make you feel sick.

However for a baiting campaign where you could be putting in a lot of bait over a long period on a specific water I would also be looking at something with a better nutrional profile and a lower flavour level. In this case I would be trying to weane a fish onto a specific food source and that really is the key, its getting the fish established on a bait.

If you just stuck out say 10 LowNV baits and 10 HighNV baits the chances are the fish would not show any specific preference, it will take either / or, its pot luck, whichever one it comes across first and takes a fancy to.

However now stick out 100LowNV high flavor level baits and 100HighNV low flavour level baits every day for a year and I suspect you would eventually see a massive swing in favour of the HNV.

Of course this is just a super simplified example, there are literally a million other factors and permutations that will also play a part. It also skips the responsibility we as anglers have to try and avoid feeding them things that could do them harm...high oil cotent in winter, unboiled particles and so on.
 
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