The Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything!

[@Clive]

I think that you are spot on Philip. And when fishing one-off short sessions it is important to give a variety so that you are covering all bases whilst ensuring that some baits remain intact for long periods so that you do not have to continually disturb the swim when fishing for cagey fish. When fishing for barbel I like to put the bulk of my bait in straight away and only top up by feeders or PVA bags. Usually sight hunters like bream and chub get there first, but they just cherry pick the bigger stuff. With the mix I use the smaller particles like hemp, micro pellets and crushed maize remain.

 

[peterjg]

The HNV theory is great in theory but in actual angling practice unfortunately it just does not work - unless you have the water totally to yourself - and if that is the case you won't need to use HNV in the first place! In reality if you are using HNV baits and other anglers also start chucking in little round balls the carp will still be caught without them learning that the HNV baits are better for them.

Fred Wilton came up with the HNV theory around the mid '70s, before the hair rig was reinvented. Surely with the massive surge in carp and carp angling and boilies over the last 50 years or so the HNV theory would have been proven and recognised and now used by all anglers!

Of course some boilies are vastly better than others but the HNV theory in actual fishing situations is a dead end. Some HNV boilies surely must be very acceptable to the fish but that's because the carp like them not because the carp recognise them as a good source of protein, etc.

 

[Philip]

Of course some boilies are vastly better than others

Isnt the nutritional profile one of the reasons why some are better than others Peter ? ...I doubt very much its just flavour that makes the difference.

 

[Wakou]

I did a search for "Frolick" dog biscuits. Discontinued?

 

[Philip]

Frolic is still available over in France although I noticed the price has literally doubled in the last year. A scout & sniff round your local supermarket pet section is always worth a shot but be careful as most pet biscuits float.

 

[peterjg]

Yes, I couldn't find Frolic biscuits either, I'll try other types.

 

[peterjg]

If someone put two identical looking and smelling pies infront of me, one was proper and one was full of cardboard I am sure that I couldn't instinctively tell which one was right?

 

[nottskev]

If someone put two identical looking and smelling pies infront of me, one was proper and one was full of cardboard I am sure that I couldn't instinctively tell which one was right?

Could that be why Greggs make pies not bait?

 

[nottskev]

Fish are caught on plastic baits, but that doesn't add or subtract from the idea that they are generally able to identify foods that are good for them - it's not only fish that get induced to bite then suckered by fraudsters.

 

[mikench]

I agree that animals eat parts of their prey that are high in fat/ protein and other nutrients ( offal to us) but that is often because they need to eat rapidly before other predators come along like lions, hyenas and bears etc. Competition for food plays a part in the way an animal or fish take bait and the urgency of piling on the pounds prior to hibernation or before/ after spawning. Most baits and glugs in tackle shops catch us the anglers not fish.

 

[peterjg]

Knottskev, all too often we see signs in park lakes or in some Thames towns and at one nearby bird sanctuary saying do not feed bread to the ducks or swans. We see signs in zoos saying do not feed the animals. I agree with the HNV theory and in the wild (given time) it usually works out but in a normal fishing situation it just does not work - unfortunately.

Anyway, I'm off now to fish the Kennet for roach, I'll be using bread but maybe in this weather I should be using dynamite?

 

[nottskev]

The article posted by Clive is well worth reading. A basic point it makes is that the digestion of food provides the "analysis" of it's properties and chemical signals to the brain influence future feeding ie whether it's providing what's needed. That means, I guess, that something that appears to give off "good" signals to the senses has to be eaten to find out whether it is any good. Which takes us back to Greggs.

The food industry invests massively in chemical engineers to create all those lovely colours, flavours and textures that have us salivating regardless of the low intrinsic food value of much of the contents of the average supermarket. You could say they were bait-makers for us lol.

By the way, I'm not speaking up for anything such as the superiority of HNV baits, and I can see the fishing situation is a particular context, where for instance, we might not have to offer fish "good" food - something they will pick up and try mat well be all we require. I'm just following tjis out of interest in the interaction between food, fish biology and behaviour and us people trying to kid them.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Deleted

 

[nottskev]

Bread contains proteins, salt, fat and no doubt more things that I don't know about, comes in a form that's easy to eat, can be made into baits of any size etc. Saying it's a good bait and is often instant is quite compatible with the science that tells us fish and other wild creatures are built to identify the value foods and "learn" to eat, broadly, what they need to keep their systems in balance. There's no need to create a contradiction between the science of fish biology/nutrition and the way we use baits in practical fishing situations.

The claim that science is only a matter of professors trying to prove personal theories and endlessly contradicting each other is not a reasonable description of how science works and proceeds, adding up to "Experts - what do they know?". Would you think somebody planning to invest their all in fish farming would turn to nutritional science/experts in fish biology or ask me what's the best bait on the canal?

 

[@Clive]

The article posted by Clive is well worth reading. A basic point it makes is that the digestion of food provides the "analysis" of it's properties and chemical signals to the brain influence future feeding ie whether it's providing what's needed. That means, I guess, that something that appears to give off "good" signals to the senses has to be eaten to find out whether it is any good. Which takes us back to Greggs.

The food industry invests massively in chemical engineers to create all those lovely colours, flavours and textures that have us salivating regardless of the low intrinsic food value of much of the contents of the average supermarket. You could say they were bait-makers for us lol.

By the way, I'm not speaking up for anything such as the superiority of HNV baits, and I can see the fishing situation is a particular context, where for instance, we might not have to offer fish "good" food - something they will pick up and try mat well be all we require. I'm just following tjis out of interest in the interaction between food, fish biology and behaviour and us people trying to kid them.

The food industry isn't alone Kev. Pet food research has focussed on triggers to the taste buds. Vets say that any pet product ending in "ies" should be avoided as it will be full of artificial taste enhancers. This is not new. Jack Hargreaves mentions it in his early day in the industry. Also, bread is one of those things that contain yeast and yeast keeps cropping up in other of successful recipes.

There are plenty of Frolicks on sale in my part of France so maybe they have fallen foul of import restrictions. Possibly Omega rings might be a good substitute.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Deleted

 

[nottskev]

Kev,don't twist my words

These are your words

"science is about a professor's theory he/she wants to prove,then another disproves it shortly after,very little in a scientific paper is written in stone"

I think, as I said, that's way too off the cuff as a statement about the status of science and how it proceeds. We are communicating here thanks to science; are we expecting the internet to collapse tomorrow because the science behind it has been disproved?

A doctor's attempt to guide you to a diet that helps a digestion problem may well involve trying different foods and food combinations. I've been there myself. But that's not an example of some professors changing their minds every five minutes and it doesn't discredit medical science.. Your doctor(s) were no doubt working within a generally accepted framework of knowledge, which doesn't change on a daily basis, about, for instance, the difficulties some people have dealing with complex sugars.

Of course we anglers suck it and see and are guided by practical experience. Yes - fish will try anything edible, and yes they can be weaned, at least for a while, onto a food. Nobody is saying otherwise. But that doesn't entitle us to scoff at the science accumulated over time about how fish work - a rather different topic to how to manipulate/catch them. I don't see why you seem so antagonistic to stuff about fish and food that's not directly from an angling perspective.

 

[@Clive]

End of the day he said that there is no proof that fish and other animals can discriminate nutritional value, then posted an example of where they do and now claims that science cannot be trusted because someone else might later think differently.

I have given up.

 

[Alan Whitty]

I've deleted my previous posts involved in the disagreement with Clive and Kev,mainly as I have tried to base my opinions on this on my findings in angling and in my life,my ramblings have led to picking fault,I've said this before I don't claim to be a wordsmith and I don't type posts out and reread them to ensure they can't be misconstrued,so I've taken them out in entirety,I haven't thrown my toys out of the pram just felt that was the best course to follow...

 

[seth49]

Tried this mixed into my groundbait today, cupped some in plus a few maggots, left it for a while as I was setting up, and then fished over it, had F1s and roach soon after starting, now the chap to my left had about six fish all day, and mick to my right had seven.

I fished my pole at two sections plus top kit, feeding small amounts of ground bait plus a few maggots, whenever it went quiet, fished one white maggot plus a pinkie which seemed to work best, I had a mixed bag of roach, F1s, skimmers , a perch and two nice crucians, finished with a total of 31 fish.

So first time of trying I’m impressed, I easily had more fish than the others today, will certainly try this again, it’s on the secret list now, keeping this to myself.