Eyed or spade?

[Regalis]

Nat, one way to counter baited hook falling quicker than free offerings is down to timing, If the water is clear you can judge this by looking, then adopt that approach to water with less clarity.
Throw free offerings in first ,then cast/lower baited hook in among them after say a couple of seconds,
Another way to fool wary fish is to hook the maggot/ caster through the middle, as has been stated not all maggots and caster fall in a straight line.
The free offerings and bait going in approach will work with corn, pellets etc.

I have tried different timings regarding free offerings and hook baits and they still don't fall for it! ?I haven't tried hooking the maggots differently however. That is something to try!

I will get some footage of the situation come summer.

 

[markcw]

I have tried different timings regarding free offerings and hook baits and they still don't fall for it! ?I haven't tried hooking the maggots differently however. That is something to try!

I will get some footage of the situation come summer.

Try casting or lowering your baited hook just away from the freebies,
That can sometimes work, also have less shot down the line,

 

[wetthrough]

@wetthrough has fished it using Waggler tactics, he may be able to offer his insight on hooks for there .

Not really Mark, I use one hook, Guru LWG for everything from 20s to 16s. I switched from using eyed hooks to spades some time ago, mainly 'cos that's what the big boys used I probably catch more than I did but that's probably more down to picking where and when than the hook style. One problem I found with eyed hooks was the tendency of the knot to slide round the eye and end up where the loop ends where there are usually sharp edges. You can wiggle it back round but I think I lost a few fish as a result of damage at that point.

 

[markcw]

Thanks Gordon, I think the LWG hooks are great, I have been trying the Kaizen hooks as well, but no opinion on them yet.
Also on my list are the hyabusa hooks, they are supposed to be good.

 

[nottskev]

Not really Mark, I use one hook, Guru LWG for everything from 20s to 16s. I switched from using eyed hooks to spades some time ago, mainly 'cos that's what the big boys used I probably catch more than I did but that's probably more down to picking where and when than the hook style. One problem I found with eyed hooks was the tendency of the knot to slide round the eye and end up where the loop ends where there are usually sharp edges. You can wiggle it back round but I think I lost a few fish as a result of damage at that point.

You're in good company, Gordon, in that choice. I just came across an article in which Steve Ringer - a big boy amongst the big boys - explained his favourite hook choices for different pole fishing occasions, and the Guru LWG Spade was one. The LWG Eyed was also on his list, but only when he wants the bait on a hair + band or spike. Overall, he listed 8 hook patterns he uses. Of these 7 were spades and only 1 eyed. It may be that Spade v Eyed have not been "scientifically" tested, but then lots of our preferences and sense of what's right and works best derives from general use, intuition and experience. I can see that despite the growing popularity of eyed due to commercial applications, the general coarse market is still skewed to spade ends - there are far more of these on the display wall - so perhaps they are more a default choice and a habit. But anglers of Ringer's ilk tend to be ruthlessly pragmatic about gear, using what works and adopting any "edge", and his 7 to 1 in favour of spades says something. I'd bet I'm not the only one with loads of different spade ends, quite a few larger eyed for barbel, and a few smaller eyed for odd trips to carp territory.

 

[108831]

Well here goes Philip,the best match anglers when fishing maggots,casters etc all use spade ends,that is for float fishing anyway,these guys would not be using spades if they thought eyed were comparable,also there would be an exception to this,but ive never,ever heard of one top match angler using eyed for a days roach fishing say,also,if you only have your own results to compare with you simply dont know,as having your backside spanked regularly soon persuades a change,unless you like that sort of thing...?

 

[bracket]

However the line should come off in front of the hook shank else the spade can cut through the line when not tied correctly and the advantages of a spade end hook start to rapidly diminish in larger hooks of above a size 18 or 16 in my view.

Keith

Keith. This is always something I have had a problem understanding. I have tied tens of thousands of spade end hooks for the trade. I always brought the line off in front of the spade, because that is what the customer wanted. However if you take a hook tied in this manner and gently try to set it into the ball of your thumb the hook tilts, as it attempts to set, and the direction of pressure is in a direct line through the hook point and the spade. During playing a fish the line will come away from the spade to both the left and the right, but at some point it will lay along the spade and touch the edge of the spade creating the conditions for possible line failure. If the line comes away from the back of the spade there is no way this can happen. I always tie hooks for myself with the line coming away from the back of the spade. It's going against the normal convention and is purely my own point of view. To be realistic, in practice I doubt it makes a whit of difference. Pete

 

[steve2]

I have always been confused as to why back or front tied hooks would cut through hook links as this really ever happened to any angler. No matter which way the hook is tied the fish will twist and turn during the fight changing the direction of the hook link and expose the edge of the spade to the hook link.
Seems to me that front tied is no better than back tied and is done because that's the way the book says.

 

[nottskev]

Well here goes Philip,the best match anglers when fishing maggots,casters etc all use spade ends,that is for float fishing anyway,these guys would not be using spades if they thought eyed were comparable,also there would be an exception to this,but ive never,ever heard of one top match angler using eyed for a days roach fishing say,also,if you only have your own results to compare with you simply dont know,as having your backside spanked regularly soon persuades a change,unless you like that sort of thing...?

I'm in agreement, but here's one particular exception worth mentioning. We were both saying what an outstanding angler Jamie Hughes is, in his own field, ie commercials. I was watching his video on the ins and outs of fishing shallow on the pole, and he's using a hair-rigged banded caster, obviously on an eyed hook. To me, a caster stuck in a bait band with the eyed hook exposed looks awful, but look at what he catches....... I tend to think that so called "silvers" on commercials, where they compete for food in over-stocked conditions have their caution over-ridden and are a different proposition to eg roach in natural waters, but it's an example of top angler using eyed hooks.

 

[Keith M]

I’ve never used a spade end hook which comes away from the rear of the hook, I’ve just followed convention. But I can see the logic in having the line come up from the front of the hook:

The spade on a spade end hook is almost always bent slightly backwards (away from any vertical line) at the rear, and when a maggot (or another similar bait) is taken into a fishes mouth the hook point is initially pulled down as it penetrates the skin and then it usually starts to straighten as the maggot starts to take over the pull on the bend.

If the line is tied so that it comes off the rear of the hook then as the hook point is pulled down as it penetrates the skin of the fishes mouth the spade (which is normally slanting backwards) will be more able to damage or cut through the line especially as the hook starts to straighten up when there is a hard pulling fish on the end, because the edge of the spade would be pressing and rubbing against the line.

But as I say I’ve never used a spade end hook with the line coming up from the rear; however I can see the reason why the accepted method is having the line coming up from the front of the hook.

Keith

 

[Keith M]

I have always been confused as to why back or front tied hooks would cut through hook links as this really ever happened to any angler. No matter which way the hook is tied the fish will twist and turn during the fight changing the direction of the hook link and expose the edge of the spade to the hook link.
Seems to me that front tied is no better than back tied and is done because that's the way the book says.

If the spade was bent the other way (towards the point of the hook) then I would agree that line coming off from the back of the hook would be a bit more advantageous, but it isn’t normally, it’s usually bent well away from the vertical and well away from the fishing line at the back of the hook and out of the way.

Perhaps we should draw a diagram to show this a little clearer.

NB: Not exactly the same but very similar: Carp anglers often add hook aligners at the top of their hooks to get their lines hanging and coming off towards the front of their hooks too, which is done to aid hook penetration; and even when they don’t use hook aligners; the knotless knot used by most these days has the line coming off from the front of the hook to aid hook penetration.

Keith

 

[nottskev]

I think this is one of those angling controversies that are resolved in practice rather than in theory. I've seen it written that Matchman-type hook tyers produce an inferior knot. And I've read that the line needs to come off the front of spades. Well, I've used these hook tyers since they came out in the 70's. I tie hooks with the line coming off the back. I never bought into the steroidal commercial styles that use 4 or 5lb lines to catch even modest sized fish; I use light hooklengths from .08 to .10 a lot, and catch all sorts on them. I can honestly say I've never, so far as I'm aware, lost a fish through line being cut by a spade end. I've had hooks come off - if I'm catching and unhooking lots of fish on micro-barbs, now and then I end up with the whipping minus the hook in my finger and thumb - but that usually comes down, on inspection, to an individual hook with too small a spade so the whipping is pulled off when you've wiggled it a lot. Whatever the theory, hook tyers and line off the back work for me more or less perfectly, and there's no reason to change, or even think about it.

 

[Philip]

Well here goes Philip,the best match anglers when fishing maggots,casters etc all use spade ends,that is for float fishing anyway,these guys would not be using spades if they thought eyed were comparable,also there would be an exception to this,but ive never,ever heard of one top match angler using eyed for a days roach fishing say,also,if you only have your own results to compare with you simply dont know,as having your backside spanked regularly soon persuades a change,unless you like that sort of thing...?

Well Alan, perhaps you dont see more match anglers using eyed hooks as they cant get the patterns they want in the small fine wire sizes with eyes on them.

So quoting Match anglers preference for spades would be like me quoting Carp anglers preference for eyed hooks as some sort of proof that they are better.

Side by: side empirical tests is the way to resolve this.

Anyone done those ?

 

[108831]

Not really true,my favourite spade end hook of all time is the Drennan Carbon Chub,this hook is not a fine wire hook,but a forged mid thickness of wire,it is a strong hook,capable of landing good barbel(mid-doubles) and carp on lines to 0.20mm(size 18),many of the better match anglers from my area swore by these hooks and have moaned to many a Drennan rep as to their being discontinued,still good for roach,dace etc,eyed hooks are available in similar wire gauges,in fact the very popular(God knows why)Kamasan B911 is available in eyed and spade,no doubt many anglers on FM use them,though not many match anglers would use them for roach.As for using eyed hooks for fishing for roach with casters on the band,that is down to the best way to mount the band more than anything else,plus commercial roach arent fished for in the main...
I must say that hearing Pete and Kev say they tie their spades from the back is odd in my opinion as the hook upon striking is forced away from the straight leaving the gape more open,which sounds like it SHOULD be easier for the hook to come out,but when successful,experienced anglers like them continue to tie them this way it cannot be an issue,so power to their elbows. Anglers use whatever hooks,knots,lines they prefer,everything will catch fish,some will be superior for the majority of the time,ive caught bags of roach on banded pellet,with 2lbers among them,but the eyed hook is superior for that presentation imo,but others will probably disagree,it is all opinion based...

 

[nottskev]

I can see see the value of bench testing for, say, line breaking stresses. But even then the information is of limited value because bench tests don't reproduce fishing conditions: in fishing, lines are not subject to steadily increased loading, but a mixture of stresses, some steadily applied, some suddenly imposed. Not to mention how they are affected by shot being pinched on and moved, or by the friction through rings, by different knots, by contact with things in the water...... Tackle items are already subjected to long-term practical tests; it's called fishing. The idea that the Harrell's and Ringer's of this this world, who already have the option of eyed 16's, 18' and 20's if they want them, need to have their tackle choices validated by men in white coats is not convincing. As regards the point that match angler's preference for spades means no more than carp angler's preference for eyed - not so. There is no realistic alternative to eyed for anglers after big carp with big hooks, but there are alternatives for match anglers using small hooks, and the fact that aside from commercial hair-rig methods they overwhelmingly choose spades against the alternative speaks for itself.

 

[nottskev]

Btw Alan - reading this thread actually made me think: do I put the line at the back or front of the spade? I really couldn't swear to which, so I went and tied one to see! This goes to show that however I do it, it's so automatic and reliable I don't even think about it any more. In fact, if there's a weak link in my set up, it's probably me.

 

[markcw]

Assuming you have either made a batch of eyed or spade end hooklengths or bought some.
How do you store them. ?
At the moment my Guru hooklengths are still on the card strips they come on, awaiting transfer to Guru hooklength boxes, I just have to write the labels out to put in the boxes.
I did have some Preston ones that I put in a Preston hooklength box, They were supposed to be 6 " and the pegs in the box were supposed to be 6" , the hooklengths were to long.
My Drennan ones and middy ones stay in the packets.
I see that Preston have brought them out on "sticks" with small magnets on to fit in new style hooklength box. I know a few that use them, but I am going to stay with the guru.

 

[peterjg]

I have carried out multiple tests comparing the difference between the knots on eyed and spade end hooks. The best knot for spade ends is the Snell knot with variants of the Domhoff knot being weaker - the best knots for eyed hooks are the Palomar knot and the knotless knot. Of the two I prefer the knotless knot because of what I consider to be better hooking. Why use a hook (spade end) and knot which is inferior???

 

[nottskev]

As I said, I used hook tyer and spades for all my "mixed" fishing. If I considered it inferior, I'd change, but since that catches everything up to and including tench and chub, and usually interloping carp, I would be fixing what isn't broken. Even with carp gatecrashers, it won't be the hook or hook knot that gives. For big stuff, including lots of big barbel hooked close in on a short line, I prefer Palomar which I've found more reliable than knotless, on which -and yes I do take care not to whip the line into the "gap" where the eye closes - I've had a couple of random failures. The Palomar doesn't provide for easy mounting of baits via bands, lasso's and spikes, a limitation, but there are alternatives to those. I guess a lot of us who've arrived at set-ups we find just right wonder why others use "inferior" ones

 

[nottskev]

Assuming you have either made a batch of eyed or spade end hooklengths or bought some.
How do you store them. ?
At the moment my Guru hooklengths are still on the card strips they come on, awaiting transfer to Guru hooklength boxes, I just have to write the labels out to put in the boxes.
I did have some Preston ones that I put in a Preston hooklength box, They were supposed to be 6 " and the pegs in the box were supposed to be 6" , the hooklengths were to long.
My Drennan ones and middy ones stay in the packets.
I see that Preston have brought them out on "sticks" with small magnets on to fit in new style hooklength box. I know a few that use them, but I am going to stay with the guru.

As usual given my take on accessories and the trend towards taking the kitchen sink in a wheelbarrow, my system (lol) is minimal to non-existent. I've read of guys taking literally hundreds of pre-tied hooklengths, but it's rare I take more than one for a float rig or a few if they entail bands, spikes or whatever fiddly stuff. I can't be bothered and I'm never so pushed that I don't have a minute to tie up whatever I fancy on the bank. When I see those pics of guys' hook boxes with countless hooks of the same pattern in different sizes on different lines, there is I admit something impressive, but it strikes me like those pics of some people's tidy cupboards and fridges. I've got a big range of different hook patterns, and 8 spools of hooklength line, and I like to tie up a fresh whatever hook on whichever line. If I do do any, they're stored in a foam cylinder in a cut-down float tube or one of those foam bobbins, both as light an option as I can find.