Dam Tourists -no beaver content ; wild fishing and snobbery

nottskev

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Experts generally consider that beavers are good for the environment and wildlife in several ways. I do not know anything regarding beavers, I do know if beavers are present they would give themselves away by the chews they make where they live. They can not cut down any trees without giving clues as to where they are.
I will reiterate that the only people in the UK to be against beavers are anglers. So what if fishing alters on a particular venue. A good angler adapts, poor anglers are reluctant to change. If we are not prepared to share watercourses we will soon have nowhere to fish.
Wildlife is wanted by most of the public in the UK, anglers will soon be forgotten. Get with the programme or get out of any activity needing water to perform.
I have no reason to moan about beavers, they are nowhere near where I live or fish. I would still struggle to find a reason not to have beavers.
There is plenty of beaver facts laid down by experts. Not so much from the average layperson.
I know who I put faith in.

I couldn't agree more. it's depressing when anglers refer to "these re-wilders" as some species of ill-informed do-gooder. Re-wilding covers a broad spectrum from those supporting trialled re-introductions of mammals to suitable areas, through those increasing our understanding of how our missing species -animals, plants and insects - leave damaging gaps in natural chains and hierarchies, to those advocating we leave alone some of our unused land to let nature work its recovery. There is massive expertise and specialist knowledge out there, and its importance is only becoming clearer as we lose more and more species and see our environment and the natural systems it supports deteriorating.

Anglers would do better to read up on the matter before travestying proponents as "tree-huggers", "bunny-huggers", do-gooders and all the rest, and conjuring alarmist nonsense about dangerous animals roaming the countryside. I've read nothing by influential figures which doesn't recognise that whatever we do to restore some of the damage we've caused needs to fit with our modern, developed, economically intensive world. Any one who writes stuff like "they'll want to bring back pterodactyls next" is just proving who's the dinosaur now.
 

John Aston

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Mr Rayner- being half Scot (and half Australian/Irish ) I may well have to ask you to step outside , matey .And I agree completely with Nottskev. The only aspect of natural history that many anglers take interest in is the size of fish in a particular location , regardless of the reasons for their growth. There is also far too much of the 'we've had enough of experts' Gove narrative - thanks Mr Bailey . I'd rather trust a scientist with an evidence based plan than the usual simplistic guff spouted by some anglers - God above but how we love to think simple solutions can always solve complex problems.
 
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S-Kippy

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"Mores the pity", I wouldn't totally disagree with that. I am out of touch with any fishing there, I moved out when I was 14 but my memories are not that bad, the Thames and parks and GUCanal. I don't remember any fly fishing but I expect there are a few places now, I know of one in Brentford, Syon House, I believe that is trout fly fishing now and it was a very nice place..
Middx has miles of the GUC though the higher up you go generally the better the fishing. The Thames can be good in places though (as ever) the issue is finding access and safe parking. I hardly ever fish the Thames as a direct result. That and the River Colne apart ( which was brilliant back in the day) I'm struggling as though I was born and grew up in Middx a lot of my fishing was "over the border" in Bucks and Berks. I live in South Bucks now on the edge of the Colne Valley which is largely carp dominated. The Colne can still be good but the days when it produced whopping great roach and dace are over. Huge chub and barbel are still there to be caught but they need finding. Places I used to frequent I no longer fish because I just wouldnt leave my car unattended any more. That's true of many places I used to fish and not just in Middx.

Never fished Syon House....the idea of a days fishing in Brentford just never appealed and still doesn't.
 
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rayner

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Mr Rayner- being half Scot (and half Australian/Irish ) I may well have to ask you to step outside , matey .And I agree completely with Nottskev. The only aspect of natural history that many anglers take interest in is the size of fish in a particular location , regardless of the reasons for their growth. There is also far too much of the 'we've had enough of experts' Gove narrative - thanks Mr Bailey . I'd rather trust a scientist with an evidence based plan than the usual simplistic guff spouted by some anglers - God above but how we love to think simple solutions can always solve complex problems.
Can you please explain what I typed that you have taken umbrage to? I have reread what I typed and am confused.
If we are to step outside as you say can we find a grassed area for your soft landing? :)
 

John Aston

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Ho ho - it was your gratuitous snipe at the Scots and EU. As a half Scottish remain voter my vengeance will be without mercy.
 

no-one in particular

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Never fished Syon House....the idea of a days fishing in Brentford just never appealed and still doesn't.
I only mentioned it because I happened upon it recently and it is now a trout fly fishing place. I used to pass it on a double decker bus many years ago and it is a beautiful house in beautiful grounds pictured below. Now it has a trout fishing lake, just shows that even in Brentford there is trout fishing and areas of beauty. I used to fish in Osterley Park Isleworth not far from Brentford which is still going a believe, another very nice place. It used to be the residence of the American Ambassador, surprising what you can find even in a urban ---- hole.

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no-one in particular

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I couldn't agree more. it's depressing when anglers refer to "these re-wilders" as some species of ill-informed do-gooder. Re-wilding covers a broad spectrum from those supporting trialled re-introductions of mammals to suitable areas, through those increasing our understanding of how our missing species -animals, plants and insects - leave damaging gaps in natural chains and hierarchies, to those advocating we leave alone some of our unused land to let nature work its recovery. There is massive expertise and specialist knowledge out there, and its importance is only becoming clearer as we lose more and more species and see our environment and the natural systems it supports deteriorating.

Anglers would do better to read up on the matter before travestying proponents as "tree-huggers", "bunny-huggers", do-gooders and all the rest, and conjuring alarmist nonsense about dangerous animals roaming the countryside. I've read nothing by influential figures which doesn't recognise that whatever we do to restore some of the damage we've caused needs to fit with our modern, developed, economically intensive world. Any one who writes stuff like "they'll want to bring back pterodactyls next" is just proving who's the dinosaur now.
The trouble is these are not trailed re-introductions to suitable areas, these are the re introduction and "re-wilding" of alien species (and I do consider them alien) on a big scale. And nature doesn't have damaging gaps, it fills them with whatever suits the gap except, we have decided to re fill them with what we think is suitable and kick out what nature "thought" was suitable to fill the gap with. If it works fine, but will it and are we able to deal with the consequences if it doesn't. The evidence that we can is not good. Who is deciding these things, the experts, or some bloke in Devon with a bit of land! Granted he had the experts looking on but all I see them do is look at it biasedly. And at the end of the day their opinions and expert advice mattered not one jot, because they "escaped" and run and bred freely anyway. How many beavers do the experts think will populate the UK now they are wild, I have never read their estimations on this, which would probably be wrong anyway, I have seen enough of scientific/expert estimations to know they often are.

And why do humans have to always to take a back row to these projects. Humans and their needs should not be put in second place. I have just read of a woman setting up an appeal to stop a building of a glamping site because swallows nest there, sod the families and people that need holidays, I am sure she will succeed as well. My hobby is fishing, it is more important to me and 3 million other people possibly than if I can see a beaver wandering around, yes I and we will adapt but at a loss to my hobby I am sure of it.

And this is not just being a selfish angler, I don't think any of these re wildings are good whether it affects angling or me personally. I think they are ecologically unsound and I am no expert but I think I know enough to have an opinion.

I am not expecting everyone to agree or follow my thinking, I can understand the nice side of all this, in fact I was excited by it all once, it is just I have been following this re-wilding for some time, a few years in fact and have learnt enough to change my opinion.
 
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John Aston

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My sympathy is with the swallows- we used to have a family every year at our old house. We had a stone shed with a stable door and the youngsters would line up every morning . Enchanting . The glampers can go and stay in a Holiday Inn .
 

no-one in particular

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My sympathy is with the swallows- we used to have a family every year at our old house. We had a stone shed with a stable door and the youngsters would line up every morning . Enchanting . The glampers can go and stay in a Holiday Inn .
I sort of agree with you but, it is popular as I understand it, maybe they are way beneath your class but they deserve and need holidays and of the type they choose, they may have worked hard all year to afford them, and you would deny them that so you can wax lyrical about a swallow. I just think we go a bit mad in all this nature must come first fad and sod the needs of humans.
 
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steve2

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Took a walk round the local country park yesterday and there was still no one fishing the lake. This is a lake that as been fished for years I first fished it 60 years;

It now seems that angling on this water is now longer seen as compatible with the trust and it is to become yet another conservation water.
So it doesn't take Beavers to stop fishing just a change in ideas as to what is right or wrong.
 

nottskev

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When someone tells you the natural environment is a fad and glamping an essential, it makes you think. It would be rude to say what it makes me think, though.

We lost a cracking bit of small river fishing nearby when the landowner diversified into Glamping Pods and banned fishing. I'm inclined to think the glampers who can afford £200 for a couple of night are unlikely to be the hard-working poor. Rather, I suspect they will be people with more disposable income then me or the locals who used to enjoy the fishing.
 

steve2

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There will always be those with money that can outbid anglers because in many cases we will spend £1000 on tackle then refuse to pay out a few pounds more for the fishing. We still want cheap fishing but will willing pay out more on a coffee on the way to the lake.
 
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rayner

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Ho ho - it was your gratuitous snipe at the Scots and EU. As a half Scottish remain voter my vengeance will be without mercy.
My post re the scots was more than a little tongue in cheek, plus verging more toward comedy. IE a joke.
If you missed the humour I can't help that, I have been told before my humour is not funny. Being close to 70 years I doubt I could change if I wanted to which I most certainly do not. :)
 

John Aston

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Sigh ... do lighten up old chap , I was replying in kind . My tongue is no stranger to my cheek either :)
 

sam vimes

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My hobby is fishing, it is more important to me and 3 million other people possibly than if I can see a beaver wandering around, yes I and we will adapt but at a loss to my hobby I am sure of it.

I'm puzzled as to how you are so sure that it will be at a loss to the hobby. It may well end up being that way, but it could easily be the complete opposite. Please tell me that you are actually Nostradamus.
 

no-one in particular

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I'm puzzled as to how you are so sure that it will be at a loss to the hobby. It may well end up being that way, but it could easily be the complete opposite. Please tell me that you are actually Nostradamus.
Ha, certainly not Nostradamus and I don't know if I am right, I just purvey my thoughts and just working out the possible scenarios that "may" happen and that beavers and angling will clash and angling will be the loser in my opinion. It is not just me, the University of Exeter have studied it and found there was financial loss to angling as well, although that was early days and along one river but I hadn't thought of that. Loss of income to clubs and to riparian owners had resulted in the introduction of beavers along the river Otter. Neither had I thought of the effect on the rivers once they are dammed up becoming slow and silted and losing their gravel beds changing the habitat for species we like to fish for, I think it was KiethM that mentioned that. Don't you fish/control a river like that and if it happened, could you lose members or will you have to reduce your fees? I don't know if that will happen but I think some examples are given. has it come up in your board meetings, has it come up in any clubs board meetings? I don't know obviously but do you think it should?
My thoughts have just been about will we be allowed to fish alongside beavers. I don't know, I am just second guessing what law/rules might be made, I could be wrong. However, in the same University report they found quite a bit of antagonist behavior from beaver watchers to anglers, defacing signs, shouting at anglers etc. How will that develop? Are members of a club going to put up with that or are they going to go? if I think that is going to happen where I fish I wouldn't go there or want to pay for it. How widespread will this become if beavers expand which I think they will.
Just plenty to think about, that's all.
 
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